In This Country We Are All Equal
10/13/08 Labels: Being Tolerated, Election 08, Equal Rights, Laws and Legal Stuff, Politics, Written by Lezzy Mom 44 comments
Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin may be the first Republican VP candidate to go so far as to say that she would 'tolerate gays'.
In the Vice Presidential debate held earlier this month Gov. Palin responded to a question about gay rights by saying:
If there's any kind of suggestion at all from my answer that I would be anything but tolerant of adults in America choosing their partners, choosing relationships that they deem best for themselves, you know, I am tolerant, and I have a very diverse family and group of friends...some very dear friends who don't agree with me on this issue. But in that tolerance also, no one would ever propose, not in a McCain-Palin administration, to do anything to prohibit, say, visitations in a hospital or contracts being signed, negotiated between parties.
But I don't think tolerance is what we are really after. I mean let's look at these definitions of tolerance:
- The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.
- Leeway for variation from a standard.
- The permissible deviation from a specified value of a structural dimension, often expressed as a percent.
- The capacity to endure hardship or pain.
I can appreciate the fact that she possesses the capacity to recognize differences. This is a good quality in a world leader that must deal with many cultures while at the same time not try to change them. When it comes to Gov. Palin I find my definition of tolerance is more along the lines of the 3rd one listed above. It seems the more she speaks the more capacity I need to endure the pain she causes. But back to the topic at hand. Here in the United States of America we believe in equality not tolerance. Our Declaration of Independence states
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
The definition of equal is very different than that of tolerance.
Having the same privileges, status, or rights: equal before the law.Recognizing differences and actually guaranteeing rights are two very different things. I know people recognize me as different that is part of the problem. I think it's funny that I have all the same things going on in my life as straight couples: rent to pay, kids to raise, jobs to go to. Yet it is this concept of tolerance or recognition that stops us from being equal. What I need is for Gov. Palin to say I APPRECIATE gays - not tolerate them. Jerome Nathanson once said
The price of the democratic way of life is a growing appreciation of people's differences, not merely as tolerable, but as the essence of a rich and rewarding human experience.I agree if we are going to be a true democracy then it is the appreciation and acceptance of the gay community that must happen. It is true equality and not tolerance, Gov. Palin that you must advocate for if you believe in your slogan "Country First" because in this country we are all equal.
Lezzymom has two kids and a wonderful partner. Her political commentary has appeared on C-Span and CSPAN.org. Visit her Lezzymom blog for more of her insights.
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With apologies to George Orwell: the new, make that the old, republican anthem - "All humnas are equal, but some humans are more equal than others."
Gays are psycho idiots who need therapy. They are not Americans.
If a man also lies with a man, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:13
The Good News is that their Sins have already been forgiven and they too can be covered under the Blood of Yeshuah Ha'Mashiach which will wash them as white as the new driven snow.
Jesus does not forgive freaks!
Therefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come. Matthew 12:31-32
I love the Holy Spirit. But Jesus and the Holy Spirit hate gays.
If that were true he would never have put himself up on that cross that they and the adulterers, liars, thieves, idolaters and other sinners might have their sins forgiven.
If a man hates his brother he hates the Lord Yeshua Ha'Mashiach and God our Father.
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was hungry, and you gave me food: I was thirsty, and you gave me drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in: Naked, and you clothed me: I was sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we you hungry, and fed you? or thirsty, and gave you drink? When saw we you a stranger, and took you in? or naked, and clothed you? Or when saw we you sick, or in prison, and came unto you? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Since you have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was hungry, and you gave me no food: I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and you visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we you hungry, or thirsty or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto you? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Since you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:31-46
Fairy tale psycho babel, and a complete load of crap. You delusional morons sure are funny.
I include you in that group of morons, Curtis.
Um..wow. And that is just all I can come up with is wow.
My God! The psychos are loose!!
"I love the Holy Spirit. But Jesus and the Holy Spirit hate gays."
And don't ask me how it is I missed this, while reading through the others, but I did.
Question there floon...yea, I am sure you would recognize me as quickly as I did you. Exactly how do you know what Jesus thinks about gays? I would love to know where you got such an arrogant presumption as that? The gentleman right below this post I am replying to hopefully helped you to figure out that you are dead wrong. Though I do not share the same view of homosexuality being a sin, or wrong, I do agree with what he said Jesus did for all people. To speak of religion, in a intelligent way is one thing. But you, in my opinion, are using religion as a shield, to spout off hate. And even I find that just wrong.
'If that were true he would never have put himself up on that cross that they and the adulterers, liars, thieves, idolaters and other sinners might have their sins forgiven.
If a man hates his brother he hates the Lord Yeshua Ha'Mashiach and God our Father.
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was hungry, and you gave me food: I was thirsty, and you gave me drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in: Naked, and you clothed me: I was sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we you hungry, and fed you? or thirsty, and gave you drink? When saw we you a stranger, and took you in? or naked, and clothed you? Or when saw we you sick, or in prison, and came unto you? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Since you have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was hungry, and you gave me no food: I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and you visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we you hungry, or thirsty or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto you? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Since you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:31-46'
Interesting. You are one of the few people who do not preach at the gay folks here that we are flat out wrong. You are showing compassion towards everyone, while trying to teach what the bible says. It is a very different take from what I am surely used to getting, and it is well appreciated. I hope you find many people to help in your time here. I do not think we will ever see eye to eye on this issue, as I do not believe I am in the wrong. It is a difficult thing to put into words why, but I would be very interested in talking to you, if you would like. You won't change who I am, but maybe there is something we can learn from each other.
Wow Curtis... Jesus and Hate in the same sentence?
Wanna take it to The Bible?? Let's do it then, cause there is a part about YOU GUYS TOO:
The Peril of False Teaching
Jeremiah 8:6-12
I listened and heard
But they do not speak aright...
No man repented of his wickedness,
Saying 'What have I done?'
Everyone turned to his own course,
As the horse rushes into battle.
Even the stork in the heavens
Knows her appointed times:
And the turtledove, the swift, and the swallow
Observe the time of their coming.
But My people do not know the judgement of the Lord.
How can you say, "We are wise,
And the law of the Lord is with us"?
Look, the false pen of the scribe
certainly works falsehood.
The wise men are ashamed,
They are dismayed and taken.
Behold, they have rejected the word of the Lord;
So what wisdom do they have?
Therefore I will give their wives to others,
And their fields to those who will inherit them;
Because from the least even to the greatest
Everyone is given to covetousness;
From the prophet even to the priest
Everyone deals falsely.
For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of My people slightly,
Syaing 'Peace, Peace!'
When there is no peace.
Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination?
No! They were not at all ashamed.
Nor did they know how to blush.
Therefore they shall fall among those who fall;
In the time of their punishment
They shall be cast down," says the Lord.
See... we can take the Bible and twist it's meaning to fit our agenda too!
'Fairy tale psycho babel, and a complete load of crap. You delusional morons sure are funny.'
Prove it.
You said it now back it up.
God wishes that none should perish but that everyone should ask him for forgiveness so they may have eternal life with him.
Sorry the burden of proof falls on you, it's impossible for me to prove "nothing". You're the one with a "belief", therefore prove to me that your "belief" actually exists outside of you head.
You're the one who challenged me with your personal opinion therefore it is up to you to back it up.
I want to ask a question. Off the wall, but indulge me...
I have been in love, to its truest form with a man by the name of Jake for over 12 years. People around me, in my town, and everywhere we go together, see us and know we are in that love that nothing could ever be used to describe. Even I do not know how to describe it.
If love is the purest thing on earth, then why would it be so wrong that I, or a lot of others I know, just happen to find that love with a person of the same sex, rather than one of the opposite sex?
No problem
Go to
http://www.geocities.com/jim_hayden2004/ and scroll all of the way to the bottom of the page you'll find my email. Or we can continue here if you want.
Jim,
Since we're talking Leviticus you do realize this abomination is in the ritual section and not the moral code of Leviticus, right? You also must realize there are two different Hebrew words which translate to abomination: Toevay (which is a idolatry offense) and Zimah (which is a moral offense). This "abomination" you reference is "toevah". You seem open-minded enough so do you have any thoughts as to why this abomination reference is not only found in the ritual code but specifically uses the word for a "idolatry offense". Christians imply God feels this is a moral offense but yet ignore the facts God didn't place it in the moral code nor use the word which means a 'moral offense'. This "abomination" is the same abomination as cutting one's beard or eating pork or shellfish. I've yet to hear from any "Christian" explain if God thought it was a moral offense, as so many imply, then why didn't He use the proper term for it or place it in the correct section of Leviticus.
That is like if it is a sin for 2 men to have sex with each other than why not 2 women?
The best answer I have found out is the man's seed. When a man has sex he shares or gives his seed that seed is intended to merge with the woman's egg creating another human being. When 2 men have sex they share their seed with each other and their seed is wasted or spoiled.
More importantly is is what is the definition of sin? Simply put sin is disobedience to God. God said that homosexuality is not to be done so when 2 men engage in such activities they are living in disobedience to God or living in sin.
The wages or price for their sin is stoning or death. The Lord Yeshua Ha'Mashiach put himself up on that cross and suffered your death or the price for your sin so you would have life eternal with Him and God the Father.
Most people do not understand while living in sin is a bad thing a person has the right to choose to do so if they so choose. God gave us all a free will and he fully expects us to exercise it and he will never force His will on anybody.
Therefore as long as you feel comfortable with it and see nothing wrong with it then go for it However if you are starting to feel a little guilty and uncomfortable with your life style then maybe it is time that you seriously started about asking God to forgive you and leave your situation.
Curtis,
You do realize what an ignorant prick you're being trying to tell us Jesus and the Holy Spirit hates a certain segment of people. You kinda missed the whole gist on love found in the Gospels, eh? Ever hear of the saying "You can be assured you have created God in your own image when it turns out God hates the same exact people you do". In other words, NEWS FLASH: GOD DOES NOT HATE.
However if you are starting to feel a little guilty and uncomfortable with your life style then maybe it is time that you seriously started thinking about asking God to forgive you and leave your situation.
Not
However if you are starting to feel a little guilty and uncomfortable with your life style then maybe it is time that you seriously started about asking God to forgive you and leave your situation.
we have no need to ask for forgivness for what god created.
And here we have the problem in a nutshell.
I believe the author of this post was asking for a political solution to what she sees as a political problem, that of her and all Gay Americans being treated as second class citizens.
But this discussion rapidly turned to religion.
As I see it the Constitution of the United States guarantees us separation of church and state and this concept is just too much for some, they feel they need their religious beliefs forced on others by weight of secular law.
Back in the 1800's some tried to use the Bible to justify slavery... and they pulled out the considerable verses in that book to back up their claims and said "See, God ordains that one man should own another".
Slavery was not however a issue of religion, it was an issue of basic human rights and a secular political matter. Just as Gay rights are today.
To everybody in this discussion I will say... keep your church out of my government and I will keep my gayness out of your church...
Deal?
Christians in this country have long held a superior position over all others.
Many Christians in this country still think they should still have that superior position.
Recently however, I have seen a lot of anger on their parts as the playing field gets leveled and they see that superior position being lowered, the fight to stop gay equality is just the loudest expression of that anger.
If you want to discuss Christianity, then we must choose a Bible and discuss it. In fact, from the sounds of it, Jim Hayden doesn't know his Biblical History very well, or his Biblical interpretation very well.
Levicticus is defunct. I doubt that there is one Christian in a hundred thousand who even follows every single law laid down there. I know many a Christian woman who goes outside her house without her head covered. I know that the shellfish and pork industries in this nation are thriving.
And yet, God Himself stated quite clearly that mankind and not God was responsible for the laws which would govern our society. God in his grand Covenant with Humankind at the end of the Great Flood decreed that he would never destroy the world again so long as humans ruled themselves and did not look to Him to make the laws. I'll forgive you if you cannot find it since it was expunged from numerous verisons of the Bible.
This nation, however, decrees that we shall have both freedom to practice our religion and freedom from religious domination. If you cannot accept that, then tough. If we cannot agree on what is a sin and what is not, we should not impose what one religion or religious group believes is a sin as our laws when other religious groups do not agree.
Incidentally, Mr. Hayden, your entire post is, according to most Biblical scholars over the last two centuries, Blasphemous. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Call me crazy but, shouldn't everyone be sleeping at 3:30 in the morning?
Good post Lezzymom!
Apparently my next post should be about the separation of church and state and is that concept possible when it comes to gay rights? I have always said one of the biggest problems when it comes to marriage equality is the word "marriage" itself. If everyone got a civil union license and that is what was written in the tax code and on every other government form then their wouldn't be an argument that churches would be forced to perform marriages. No, government offices would be forced to issue and recognize equality but religious institutions could choose to perform ceremonies for couple of their choice just like they do know. Straight couples can't just walk into the mormon church and get married - there are rules there. Religion could still have rules but government could still be equal. That is what the discussion should be. How can we deal with the fact that so long ago church and state was combined in our government by the use of one word - marriage. So how do we change that?
Wonderful post Lezzymom. My favorite quote in the world sums up my feelings about some of the comments here:
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~Mohandas Gandhi
That would be Mahatma, Mohandas brother. :)
WOW... Good post lezzymom and some good comments too.
to me tolerance means - i won't shoot you. very different concept than acceptance.
Sadly, some who call themselves "Christians" remind me of the Middle East extremists who persecute others in the name of religion. It has NOTHING to do with the BIBLE. The New Testament revealed a God who loves the world enough to send his Son to die for sinners. How do Christians become so exclusive, and isolationists? I see more email from so-called Christian family news than ever flaming hatred, bigotry, and an attitude that says we must save America, but they sound no different than skin heads. They are fighting to save a 1950's America that is gone. Done with, and didn't include everyone anyway. Where is the Christian love in all of this?
Men wrote the bible, not God. Men created religion, not God. Men who wanted to control other people defined sin, not God
I worship God, not your book.
The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals. It's just that they need more supervision.
If we gays & lesbians are so bad, why does the majority of the bible cater to the bad doings of straights?
Jenny623,
My mother is fond of explaining that the '50's was a great big myth. It wasn't like it appears to be in the media.
Regardless of what the Bible says and how you interpret it, it is not how the United States sets and defines our laws. If you would like to live in a society where a religious book does define the laws, they do exist (largely in the Middle East) - but the U.S. is not one of them.
Therefore, we homosexuals are Americans, contrary to one of the posters. And we're not going anywhere. But we're going to continue to work to make sure that we are treated fairly and equally, regardless of who we love.
Wow, these are some turbulent comments for me to weigh in on, so I'll just comment on the post. I may be able to "tolerate" a two-year old repeatedly poking me in the eye, but I accept, love, defend and support my gay friends.
LezzyMom :-)
Excellent post! Thank you for your courage! In addition to acceptance of and appreciation for us gay peeps, I want to add admiration. The LGBT population deserves admiration for all we contribute to society.
Best Regards,
Jules Joyce
The Fighter Writer
Great post and very interesting comments. So glad Gov Palin is willing to tolerate folks like me. Simply amazing, in a country such as ours, that this is even still an issue today.
Someone in our nation's political leadership must demand that a fundamental question be answered:
How is it that voters are permitted to use referenda to legally deny the fundamental civil or human Rights of any American Citizen, when these rights are guaranteed by our Declaration of Independence, federal and state constitutions?
Why should any American be voting in any referenda, such as California's upcoming, hateful Proposition 8, to turn their children, friends and family members who are homosexual or bisexual into an inferior class of people who are denied the right to marry? That's just plain mean-spirited.
Californians and the rest of America should ask those people directly, if they thought Jesus would go to the polls to deny any two people who truly love each other, the right to marry? Jesus - the man who deliberately violated the so-called "holy, holy" religious laws of his time when they were in conflict with deceny and loving others? What would He, Jesus do, you must ask them! Ask them directly and wait for their answer!
These same questions should be asked of our governors, judges or lawmakers. How could any American lawfully act in any way that denied the rights of any American, while allowing other Americans the freedom to enjoy those same rights?
Basic or fundamental rights are the rights of sovereign individuals. These Rights, declared and established by our ancestors in the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution, are intrinsic to our state of being human; the majestic, wonderful and mysterious creation that we are, and given to us by the Sovereign of the Universe. In former times, the kings, emperors and popes believed that God had singled them out and given them divine rights to rule over their "subjects," to issue decrees that could reward one group and punish another, or to condemn people to death or steal the wealth of citizens. As a result, our ancestors feared and despised their leaders, because they knew that they were absolutely corrupt. The Americans heroes, who sacrificed their lives to establish our just Republic, were in their time the so-called subjects of the British King George, until they had had enough. They finally issued humanity's response to tyranny. By issuing their Declaration to the British king that all humanity naturally possessed these divinely given Rights at birth, and that human beings were the sovereigns - not the political or religious leaders - their message had global consequences not only for their time and forfuture, but for all human beings throughout the world. From that enlightened spiritual spark of rebellion that came from a very small minority who had the audacity to take a stand against power and the status quo, our American Republic was born.
Bless his dear heart, Barack Obama has been the first political leader in my memory who has raised this timely issue of how blocks of voters are routinely removing the Rights of other citizens through referenda. I was already planning to vote for him, but when I heard him bring these concerns forward to the American people, it proved to me that he was the person I wanted to have as my president, so he received my vote last week! I have no doubt that Barack was referring to the relentless efforts by voters througout the United States to deny non-heterosexual Americans their Rights, or any human being their Rights. He gave considerable time to this issue in the presidential debate last Wednesday night.
So to conclude - If any elected leader is reading my post - I'd like to ask you and all the sheriffs in America to take a stand on this issue that concerns the security and happiness of California's GLBT community, as well as all Americans. Voters shouldn't even be taking a vote to deny the equality of other fellow Americans!!! Marriage is a right for all people. It's anti-American, anti-Jesus and just plain cruel, to deny it the right to marry to some of your children, family and friends. Do not allow the passage of California's Proposition 8 or any such measures that deny the equality of any American!
Madison Reed
Huntington, WV
http://www.noonprop8.com/
http://www.marriageequality.org
http://www.soulforce.org
Thanks Madison for those great words!