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Hate Crimes- Open Lesbian Gang Raped in California


“Anytime there is an anti-LGBT initiative, we tend to see spikes both in the numbers and the severity of attacks,” he said. “People feel this extra entitlement to act out their prejudice.”

A woman who’s only “crime” is being lesbian was brutally gang raped in San Francisco, California. She was raped off and on for forty-five minutes on 13 December. The attack began when four men jumped her after she got out of her car, which bore a rainbow sticker, clubbed her with a blunt object, disrobed her, and began to rape her. When a passerby almost stumbled upon them raping her in the street, they bundled her into her car and took her to an abandoned building where the sexual attack continued until the men finally left her naked, and badly injured. Through out the entire attack, the men barraged her with homophobic epithets.


She sought help from a near by resident and was taken to the hospital. The Richmond Police are offering a $10,000 reward for information leading to the arrest of these men. All that is known about these men is that the attack was random, and that one went by the nickname “Blue” and another by the nickname “Pato”.

Avy Skolnik, a coordinator with the New York-based National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs, who is quoted above, notes that there has been a sixteen percent rise in anti-gay violence last year, and that was a sixteen percent rise over the year before.

Men like Rick Warren spew hate speech from their pulpits and forget the human costs of those that they hurt. They care little that what they say, such as comparing gays and lesbians to child molesters, embolden and empower those who seek to injure those that they feel entitled to, such as the very same gays and lesbians that they have vilified. If we are to consider Adolph Hitler guilty for the crimes that others committed, that he inspired with his words and gave them orders, then Rick Warren and others who vilify gays, lesbians and transsexuals are as guilty of the crimes that those who do the actual harm do as the actual perpetrators are.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081223/ap_on_re_us/lesbian_rape

Sei Sei is a trans-lesbian who lives in Vermont and has a strong passion for LGBTI rights. She has a BA in History and her hobbies include sci-fi, anime, fantasy, action movies, video games, and more. You can visit her Blogger profile here.

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259 Responses to Hate Crimes- Open Lesbian Gang Raped in California

  1. Sei

    January 5, 2009 at 7:12 am

    Vampi,

    I hate to break it to you, at some level somewhere, religion does play a part in this even if it is not directly involved.

    Pastor Warren was singled out, however, for his words. Others, religious and non-religious, who went out there and spread lies and hate during this last campaign are all part of creating a toxic atmosphere whereby such hate crimes are on the rise.

  2. Anonymous

    January 4, 2009 at 10:20 pm

    Keep religion or non-religion out of it, and look at this only as an act considered a crime in the USA.

    By law, this is unacceptable, and it is American law that we are required to obey. I keep my personal opinion out of this argument.

    Just call me “Vampi” to refer to my post

  3. Sei

    January 4, 2009 at 6:24 am

    The only way for me to get more yankee is if I ate apple pie for breakfast.

    Not sure why you’re laughing though.

  4. ~Julie Phineas~

    January 4, 2009 at 12:10 am

    you know who has too much time on their hands, amorde1? rapists. get off the computer and go fight THEM if you are so concerned.

  5. Anonymous

    January 3, 2009 at 9:43 pm

    lol yanks

  6. Sei

    January 3, 2009 at 7:14 am

    Actually, this is sort of my job. I do this in order to help fight crimes like this. It is called reporting.

  7. Amorde1

    January 3, 2009 at 2:41 am

    90% of you have to much time on your hands. Get off the computer and go fight crime.

  8. Anonymous

    January 2, 2009 at 11:23 am

    This seems to be a job for the “GOVERNATOR”.

  9. Anonymous

    January 2, 2009 at 8:47 am

    “”””Anonymous December 24, 2008 11:29 PM

    excuse me, i’m non-religious, have faith in the Father, son, and the holy spirit, but this has nothing to do with followers of God as this lezzie’s blabbing may or may not say. homosexuality is wrong and should not be supported in any shape or form. you wish to have such filthy conduct, thats fine, but we don’t need to hear of it.

    secondly, God gave males a curse for desire of the female, they cannot in God’s eyes be held liable for that which is not in thier control.

    thirdly, and on the brighter side, maybe she will be cured of her disease….””””

    You don’t believe in GOD, period. Read this:

    http://www.escapefromwatchtower.com/homo.html

    Have a respect about homosexual people. They are not dirty or anything. You are so closed mind and heartless. You are not God fear people! Use your head! I feel sad for this woman. The death penalty should be done for rape too. If they are sorry deeply in God’s heart through their hearts and they can be forgiven but punishment is punishment and have to put to death.

  10. Sei

    January 2, 2009 at 7:51 am

    Anonymous-

    Only someone who has a heart full of hatred, and a soul full of bitterness and pain does not care about their fellow human beings no matter what.

  11. Anonymous

    January 2, 2009 at 7:20 am

    Does anyone care for Christ sakes . These were homo’s ??

  12. Sei

    January 2, 2009 at 6:04 am

    True mainstream mtf ts woman,

    According to all the valid research that I have read, there are many a gay and lesbian transperson. I am unsure why you feel the need to call me a sell out, and it would, of course, help if you actually gave me some rational for your hatred.

    I spent the better part of my life in a deep depression because of the attitudes that you displayed that some how being both transsexual and lesbian was wrong.

    And, incidentally, I have been through therapy, and all the stages involved in beginning transitioning. The fact that I am still pre-op shouldn’t matter, even though I do plan on going through with the operations.

    Of course, I noticed that you wrote this piece of anger and hatred on THIS article and not on one of the articles I have written about transsexuality.

    You, of course, have the right to agree or disagree with the idea that transsexuals belong in the “gender queer” community. However, I am not straight. The notion of sex as a “male” with a woman is baffling and disgusting to me. It is as ‘other’ to me as it is to any lesbian.

    I am a trans-lesbian in the initial stages of the final transitioning. The fact that it took so long for me to get this far is because of attitudes of people like you who have this hatred of gay and lesbian transpeople.

  13. p.Johanna

    January 1, 2009 at 10:17 pm

    to “true mtf” spoken like a true bigot. you must be one unhappy individual to display such intolerance, perhaps you display this because in your actual world you are not accepted. open up to the world instead of acting like those that do accept anyone they percieve as different.

  14. True Mainstream MtF TS woman

    January 1, 2009 at 7:56 pm

    Why this straight man who mutilated himself to pretend to be a lesbian is so bent out of shape as to what happens to gays, I have no clue. When I transitioned, I did not transition to become part of the LGBT nor to support them, but to be a full and complete member of the mainstream society and have all the same attitudes. I am not a gay man choosing to become a woman, but a straight (or non-sexual rather) woman with a medical condition. Why the author here would throw away her place in the mainstream world to settle for less, who knows. But she is quite a sell-out. Unless of course she still has a penis. Then he would be a transgendered male pretending to be a woman, not a transsexual mainstream woman born with the wrong parts and the medical need to fix this. I cannot stand a damn sellout.

  15. ~Julie Phineas~

    January 1, 2009 at 1:19 pm

    has anyone here heard of A Course in Miracles? Please look into it.

  16. Anonymous

    January 1, 2009 at 11:05 am

    what race were the rapists? Most rapists these days are either black or hispanic. both are far less accepting of homosexuality than whites. most whites just leave people alone.

  17. Sei

    December 31, 2008 at 3:16 pm

    Thank you for finally giving us which of the plethora of Bibles you read.

    I am familiar with this version, and it is lacking in its scholarship and highly biased in its translations.

    Now, please, give us which of the plethora of denominations you belong to.

    After that, we can form a meaningful dialogue.

  18. p.Johanna

    December 31, 2008 at 3:15 pm

    all the scriptures you just cited are words by men, imperfect men. some were letters from them to their congregation of their days others letters to who knows who. some of those men had decided by their own accord not to have sexual relationships at all, by their own accord.

    you keep jumping from the old testament to the new testament to try and make a ridiculous point. you already admitted that Jesus never proclaimed anything against GAYS, stop trying to back track, or wait, YOU CHRISTIANS ARE GREAT AT THAT, back tracking and lying, nevermind.

  19. Anonymous

    December 31, 2008 at 3:08 pm

    Well, if one does believe Jesus is God; if one does believe Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever (see—Hebrews 13:8), and if one does believe all Scripture is theopnuestos—breathed of God—(see—2 Timothy 3:16), then all we have to do is look in the Bible and see if God ever spoke concerning the practice of homosexuality and we’ll see what Jesus has said on the subject:

    You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. (Leviticus 18:22, NASB)

    If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them. (Leviticus 20:13, NASB)

    For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. (Romans 1:25-27, NASB)

    Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NASB)

    Hmm, it really doesn’t sound like Jesus was silent on one of the critical issues of our time at all; does it? And it sure looks to me that if we say we love sinners, and then we aren’t at least honest enough to tell them the Truth, then we lie. But men and women, this is sin as well:

    “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8, NASB)

  20. p.Johanna

    December 31, 2008 at 2:07 pm

    i am always humored as to all these theories that people, imperfect people, tend to come up with. anonymous just agreed that JESUS never preached against homosexuality and then added his/her two cents as to why. IF YOU DIDN’T LIVE IN HIS TIME THEN DON’T PUT WORDS INTO HIS MOUTH OR GUESS OR ASSUME. He directly stated against false witness, against slander, and against hate. i am glad that you just admitted HE never spoke against Homosexuality, I am saddened that you had to tarnish it with your B.S.

  21. p.Johanna

    December 31, 2008 at 2:00 pm

    i believe in the Bible. I believe it is a great story. i believe that it tells what society first needed “in the beginning”. i believe, and this one is important, that it tells a story of a man that was said to have been the son of God and that he preached about Peace and Love and he, most importantly, hung out with those that in his time were considered shunned by society. I believe that those in our present time state they have HIM in their hearts REALLY DO NOT FOLLOW IN HIS FOOTSTEPS OR FOLLOW HIS EXAMPLE.

  22. Sei

    December 31, 2008 at 1:57 pm

    “As far as Rick Warren goes, if he didnt mean it the way you took it then he could have simply come out and said so, he could have said”

    The reporter who gave that interview asked a few seconds after Warren said it if he meant it, and Warren said that he did indeed mean it. Thus, Warren meant exactly what he said.

    Other than that, we can disagree. I mean, after all, there is certainly enough of a battle still going over the role of women in society. There are just lines which get crossed that should not be crossed.

    Warren stood by that statement right up to the point where he was getting hauled over the coals concerning it.

  23. Anonymous

    December 31, 2008 at 12:25 pm

    I am sorry this happened to this woman I am a Christian and I think this act of violence is just despicable (not sure I spelled that right hope u know what I mean)As far as Rick Warren goes, if he didnt mean it the way you took it then he could have simply come out and said so, he could have said, I’m sorry I’m not saying homosexualty is like pedaphilia, I’m simply saying that I dont agree with the lifestyle and it’s an abomonation to the God I serve and will never vote for same sex marriage. He could always come out and clarify what he meant.
    I may not agree with your lifestyle choices,however I would never say you guys are like pedaphiles, yes sin is sin and we as human categorize one worse then the other, but as beleivers we have to be careful in how we word things especially as influentional Warren is. I’m sorry that you all are having to go through this hurtfulness. Please know not all Christians view you as disgusting or as pedaphiles, I may not like your actions I may beleive they are sinful and an abomonation to the Lord Jesus, but I will not call your actions like pedaphillia, The truth is we are called to love even our enemies. I can only put myself in your shoes, I want you to know Jesus does love each and everyone of you Jesus came to the sick not the well. We all need him He doesnt say go get cleaned up then come to me, what I love about Jesus is he does all the cleaning up. I was bisexual before I gave mylife to Christ now Im married with 5 kids, did I struggle along the way absoluetly but God remained faithful and in Christ we are a new creation, it is up to him to change and for those who belong to Christ to obey and yield, no matter how much it hurts.

  24. Anonymous

    December 31, 2008 at 12:10 pm

    the truth is we dont need to law to back up what Chrisitans beleive, although it is our right to stand up for what we beleive in even as it it is the gay and lesbians right to stand up for what they beleive in, the book of John tells us in Jesus there is life and that life gives light to everyone and it shines in the darkness and the darkness can not quench it!!!!So even if you beleive homosexuality is darkness then you should know by “reading your Bible” that even if they got married or not it cant quench the light. No matter how dark our world may get it cant quench the light, I understand Christians defense of sustaining morality and saying people will want to marry animals and the like, but the truth is if God says marriage is between man and women and the government who by the way is not Christian at all as you can tell by some laws in place, then we are to trust that God is soverign.

  25. Anonymous

    December 31, 2008 at 12:05 pm

    Well it wouldnt matter anyways since p.johanna doesnt beleive in the Bible she beleives she evolved, so its irrelevant to try and say homosexuality is a sin or not since her faith is in evolution and not the Bible or divine creation. Yes the Bible teaches homosexuality is an ambonation Jesus never taught it because Jesus came to the Jews, they would have known not to commit such abmonations, he commisioned Paul to preach the gospel message to the Gnetiles who were committing such acts because they knew no better, yes it does say for us not to judge as we to are equally condemned Romans is about Gods wrath upon us all (even so called Good christians, jews, and gentiles) and then it is about Gods plan for salvation. The problem was that people had turned away from God thier creator and began to worship creation and not God so God was angered and gave them over to thier desires, for some it may be money, others, sex, others drunkerdness, others unnatural relations, ect. But God also provided a way and that is JESUS. S&G was destoryed for many reasons as stated above in one post not just homosexuality as some Christians like to always point out. We are all sinners in Gods eyes, but the truth is Jesus dies for all of our sins and therefore if we have faith in Jesus we can be saved. It is up to him to change our abomintaions and as we trust him he will, if we beleve that certian sins are an abomonations to God then we will no longer commit those.

  26. p.Johanna

    December 31, 2008 at 1:42 am

    OMG, this coming from a 17 year old. Thank you Nick, because (i am included in this) everyone fights over this and squabbles and you hit the nail right on target.

  27. Anonymous

    December 30, 2008 at 10:46 pm

    TO answer every single question and statement that has been splattered onto this page, I have to be completely unbiased.

    Everyone here wants to argue a logical point, and where that first leads you to, is that God in all forms doesn’t exist. Science has proven that over and over for years and years.

    All those who would attack me for that, hold your tongues. Don’t base your responses off of that. From this, you have to understand that you can’t ask…”Is being a homosexual a sin?” because we can no longer have faith in a document.

    Jesus, the one person that actually matters in christianity NEVER SPOKE about homosexuality. Facts are facts. If you’re basing your opinion of homosexual “abominations” from leviticus, then you MUST BELIEVE that you can’t eat shellfish, or pork, or cook meat and milk in the same vessel, or touch a dead pig. You CANNOT choose what to believe from the bible. I don’t believe there is a commandment that states…”thou shalt pick and choose from the old testament.”

    If you agree that you can’t pick and choose with the bible, then you must agree that all these sins are equal and weighed equally in “God’s eyes”

    Facts are facts, i have deliberately laid this out simply so that everyone can understand.

    My name is nick, i’m 17 years old, and i obviously understand all of this far better than some of you posters.
    This all boils down to one thing, and that is…If you are of faith, if you believe in your heart that Christ died for you and us and all of our sins…then how can you not believe EVERY WORD that came of the father? God doesn’t make mistakes. Whether you believe homosexuality is a choice or not, it’s irrelevant. Do you think that god said these things, just to make them false…

    the answer is no.

  28. Sei

    December 30, 2008 at 9:25 pm

    Anonymous of the Long Post-

    Thank you. It is hard to find a person who knows their Bible and is willing to speak up for what it says.

    As for the extremely long post, do not worry about it. Trust me, I have to limit what I say sometimes because I will get carried away. Trust me, I was once told that I had a minimum of twenty pages to write a report, and it ended up being sixty.

  29. Anonymous

    December 30, 2008 at 9:15 pm

    Before I proceed with my thoughts on all this, I should point out that I am none of the ‘anonymous’ people who have heretofore posted on this topic.

    I find this thread simultaneously fascinating and disturbing. Let me note before we proceed, in the interest of full disclosure, that I am a Christian, as several earlier posters claimed to be.

    There is so much in prior posts that is SO wrong. Dear God, where to begin?

    Well, I could start by expressing, as most have here, my utter disgust at what happened to the lady in San Francisco, and my hope and prayers that she recovers swiftly in both mind and body.

    Of course, some commentors on this thread couldn’t leave it at that. Four comments in, we drift from outrage and sympathy at a staggering crime to comments about “liberals” spewing hate when they express dismay at Rev. Warren’s remarks and some thoughts on gun control; then, one comment later, someone has the temerity to focus on the fact that she was a homosexual, condemn that fact, THEN point out that men are cursed with liking women and thus not responsible if they decide to rape somebody. Later, we move on to Christian dogma and the End of Days somehow.

    Obviously that fourth comment is beyond the pale. I can only hope the commentor was trying to be offensive because of his opinions about homosexuality, and that he/she doesn’t REALLY feel that way. I hope.

    Well, this Christian doesn’t read the Bible to indicate that homosexuality in and of itself is a sin. This isn’t the main point of my post, but there are to my knowledge 3 references directly to homosexuality in the Bible – the tale of Soddom and Gomorra (Genesis 18-19), the Leviticus reference about it being an abomination, and the tail end of Romans chapter 1.

    I’m sure to be (figuratively, I hope) stoned and dismissed as a heretic by those who will call themselves ‘real’ Christians; however, those who love to pull out a few verses from the Bible to make a point (as if to say “game, set, match; I win”) fail, I believe, to see the forest (the comprehensive message of the Bible) for the trees (portions picked out here and there that support their position), and also therefore completely strip the passages of their context.

    In Genesis, Sodom is destroyed for its wicked inhabitants. Much is made of the fact that the men of the town gathered to assault Lot and his 2 visitors, and Lot offers the crowd his 2 daughters instead. So it is asserted that homosexuality is so bad that rape is a ‘better’ sin, but in reality, a later reference in Ezekiel 16 indicates that the cities’ worst sins revolved around selfishness and the abuse of visitors, not homosexuality (thus, better to abuse the daughters who were inhabitants than the visitors in Lot’s house). Another passing reference in Jude does mention ‘perversion’ in some translations, but ‘going after strange flesh’ in others and is meant to be analogous to the mention a few verses in Jude earlier of ‘licentiousness’ in general, so that reference is ambiguous. However, Old Testament references to Sodom, rabbinical commentaries made before the birth of Jesus, and references by the Jewish historian Josephus identify non-sexual behaviors as the ones that disgusted God, and thus that interpretation is the one more based in history.

    In Leviticus 18, a long list of things to do and not to do is laid out for the Jews as they settle into the promised land, primarily centered around who one can and cannot have sex with. More rules follow in Leviticus 19. Although the ‘do not’ seems direct here, other instructions in these 2 chapters are routinesly ignored by even the most fundementalist Christians today. For instance, other rules include abstaining from sex while your wife is having her period, not eating meat with blood in it (echoed in the New Testament), not cutting the hair on the sides of your head or trimming your beard, not wearing clothes made from two different materials, and not eating fruit from a planted fruit tree until its fifth season of fruit production. In a larger context, these were rules given to the Israelites to prevent them from falling into practices undertaken by other deities that were recognized by the region’s inhabitants (Molech is specifically mentioned at one point), and thus appear intended to prevent the fledgling Jewish community from assuming a different religion and thus losing their identity and God’s message through assimilation. This is the justification given for ignoring the other directives in these two chapters, and seems logical in the textual and historical context. Only certain rules are cited by some Christians as needing to be followed in perpetuity, and the choice is completely arbitrary, no matter what some may claim.

    The Romans reference is interesting. It does seem to cast homosexual relations in a negative light, but a closer reading shows that God was angered at how some people with knowledge and acceptance of Him had turned away to follow a sinful path, and THEN it indicates that they were ‘given over to’ these ‘unnatural’ desires in order to be punished, or as a punishment in itself. This would imply (a) that after their rejection of God, they were given over to feelings THAT WERE BEYONE THEIR CONTROL. They chose certain sins, then were ‘given over’ to these ‘unnatural’ desires – the ‘unnatural’ desires were not what caused his wrath, it was an affliction He gave to them, perhaps because of the torment He knew they would have to endure in a society that condemned such things? Well, maybe, but the text seems to indicate that these desires were given to them, beyond their control, because of the suffering it would cause.

    But beyond all that – let’s say some of these commentors are correct, and homosexuality is a sin by Christian standards. Please note…

    A) In the references in both Romans and in Jude, after discussions noted above, a much more condemning reference is made to those who would judge these people (who we are assuming for argument’s sake are in fact sinning). In Jude, even as Moses fights Satan himself, all Moses says is “may the Lord rebuke you” and not “I’m rebuking you.” And in Romans, Paul condemns strongly those who pass judgement on sinners, since they themselves sin.

    In a larger context, look at the life of Jesus. He decries a lot of things about the state of society at the time, but he reserves his harshest judgements for those who have elevated themselves morally above members of the general population (the Scribes, Pharisees, High Priest, etc.). It is obvious to anybody that reads and thinks about it that he harbors serious contempt for those who practice arrogance, haughtiness, and self-righteousness in their relationships with others. He teaches humility and compassion, primarily because it is appropriate. IF homosexuality is a sin, the bottom line is that we all have sinned. People like the late Rev. Falwell point to certain sins as the cause of ‘God’s wrath being unleashed on us’ but like so many others that cite sin as a cause of disaster… it seems always to be somebody else’s sin that’s causing the disaster, and not his own (I have no particular beef with Rev. Falwell; that example just came to mind).

    Finally, as Jesus walked in a (Roman) society where it was legal to kill your own child up until the age of 12, and where the lack of sexual propriety would put almost everyone now alive to shame (in other words, a society where by the standards of most Fundementalists things were much worse than they are here and now), He didn’t aim to change laws or governmental policies. He came to redeem ALL of us from our myriad sins, and to make sure his message was spread. At that, people were left to make up their own minds. If anyone is truly a Christian and in his heart of hearts believes homosexuality is a sin, the message of the Gospels STILL doesn’t justify using laws and governmental policies to abridge people’s rights. You should spread the message and let God guide others where He may. If you truly have faith in Christ and the Gospel message, you don’t need laws to back you up! The message will speak for itself.

    And above all else, it seems obvious to me (that’s just me) that whatever you feel God accepts or condemns, we Christians have no right to make judgements of others, hold them in any sort of contempt, or feel we are in any way better than they are. Because we’re NOT. We’re all lost and trying to make our way. If we share what we’ve found and live as we believe one should, God can sort out who is a sinner and what is a sin; it’s not up to us, whether you believe being gay is some sinful choice or not (as I believe).

    Thank you all for bearing with this unforgivably long comment. I just felt like I had to write something!

    And God bless that poor woman in San Francisco!

  30. Anonymous

    December 30, 2008 at 7:19 pm

    Anyone considering that this was racially motivated? The victim was most likely white….. Three hispanic males and one black male. Hope all of you hippies feel safe in California!

  31. Tman

    December 30, 2008 at 3:42 pm

    Unfortunate that this happened. It sounds like some b.s. excuse for some thugs to justify a terrible crime in their own twisted minds. If the perps were doing this in the name of Christianity (nothing in the article clearly states they were), they were sorely mistaken. The whole idea behind Christianity is to not harm yourself or other people. Rape is definitely harming other people.

  32. Sei

    December 30, 2008 at 1:55 pm

    Anonymous,

    First of all, why all caps?

    Second of all, the words of a person are unlike the Chaos theory.

  33. Anonymous

    December 30, 2008 at 1:52 pm

    PASTOR WARREN IS A LIAR. I DONT HATE HIM I JUST CALL IT LIKE I SEE IT. HIS LIES PERPETUATE HATE MUCH LIKE THE FLICK OF A BUTTERFLY’S WINGS CAN CAUSE A HURRICANE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WORLD.

  34. Sei

    December 30, 2008 at 1:49 pm

    “What you really want is the other 97% of the population to say that what you choose to do or were born as is normal.”

    Actually, the portion of the American people who believe that how we were born is either of no conciquence or that it is normal and biological is much closer to 50%. In fact, I believe that the majority of Americans now, according to numerous polls, shows that they believe that this is perfectly acceptable.

    There was a time in this country when 90% of the population oppressed 10% of it’s population. That did not mean it was right, and did not mean that it would stand forever.

  35. p.Johanna

    December 30, 2008 at 1:45 pm

    “small minded and judgemental”: “What you really want is the other 97% of the population to say that what you choose to do or were born as is normal. Its never gonna happen, so why don’t you evolve into something a little less sensitive and a little more cerebral and rise above what is mostly rhetoric.” you made an assumption. me, p.johanna, don’t care about the “97%” as a U.S. citizen i want the same exact rights that “normal” people have.

    also, the statements that I made were very simply and direct and you went off and added what you perceive about a GROUP of us. hypocritical of you since you are trying to say that about me.

  36. Sei

    December 30, 2008 at 1:44 pm

    “I support gun rights, will you support me in that?”

    Walter-

    I do not support you on gun rights, but I believe Paula does.

    Incidentally, no, we don’t assume you are Christian because you oppose us. We suspect you are because you support Pastor Warren and make claims about the Bible.

  37. Sei

    December 30, 2008 at 1:42 pm

    There is an old saying, I believe it is Iriquois, thought it might be Ottawa-

    “Do not judge someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes”

    You condemn us for speaking the truth. You even ignore the fact that all I did was single out Pastor Warren among many who pushed these propositions and created a hostile environment. I condemned Governor Sarah Palin when she did the same thing during the election. I did not do so out of prejudice or hatred because it is not in my nature to hate the same way you seem to think I do. I have had people hurl all kinds of epithets at me, and barely flinched. I have had people strike me, and turned and walked away.

    When I was in ninth grade, there was a boy who use to pick on me and tease me. He called me dumb, fag, and all kinds of names. He would hit me and knock me over. I did nothing. I turned and walked away.

    Then one day, this kid, who stood a head shorter than me, decided it was funny to steal the crutches of a girl with a broken leg.

    I pinned him to the wall and took the crutches back.

    Pastor Warren hurt someone with his actions and his speech. The fact that you agree with him shows your own prejudices. I still do not hate you.

    I remember going through school being admired by many of the Christian students because I exemplified the virtues that they had been taught.

    One of them finally asked me what church I belonged to. They were appalled to find out that I hadn’t set foot in a church since I was three.

    I do not hate. I get angry like everyone else, but I do not hate. I do not even hate the man who molested me when I was eleven.

    Somehow, I cannot bring myself to hate Pastor Warren or anyone in his congregation or anyone who believes like he does.

    The fact that his words created an atmosphere where violence and harmful actions could take place is just that, a fact. But I do not hate him for it.

    I feel sorry for him. I feel sadness for him.

  38. Walter

    December 30, 2008 at 1:39 pm

    Are you assuming I am a christian because I do not readily support you?

    I don’t feel strongly enough about the marriage issue to change things to accomodate you.

    I support gun rights, will you support me in that?

    If I am being hypocritical, please point it out to me.

  39. p.Johanna

    December 30, 2008 at 1:07 pm

    walter, everything that you have said, “small minded, hypocrisy and even rhetoric” is exactly what you have displayed.

    i think you really need to read what was said, and read it without the anger and the prejudice that you already have in your heart. i am not trying to change you or anyone’s view about homosexuality. although, you “normal” christians constantly try to do that with us.

    your perception is very laughable. move on.

  40. Walter

    December 30, 2008 at 1:02 pm

    I don’t need to ask Warren, I understand where he is coming from. I heard what he said. Its my opinion as I stated earlier, that you are assigning a lot more influence to him than he is due. I think you fail to realize that most people view homosexuality as abnormal. Warren is just an easy target for you and that makes me think you are small minded and judgemental. If the shoe fits.

    Walk in your shoes? Why? Are you saying that because its happening to you that no other person who is not gay has never felt like you do? Sorry to burst that bubble but that is simply ridiculous.

    I don’t want to be gay but I am just as disinterested in making you not gay or spending my time telling you to fix your problems while ignoring my own. I am also not offended by the fact that people categorize my wrong doing with other wrongdoing. Its all bad. What you really want is the other 97% of the population to say that what you choose to do or were born as is normal. Its never gonna happen, so why don’t you evolve into something a little less sensitive and a little more cerebral and rise above what is mostly rhetoric.

    While these attacks are sad. There will always be a very small, and I do mean a very very small group of people who will act out their fear or ignorance through violence. Connecting those people to any other group is exactly what you oppose so again, stop with the hypocrisy.

    If you don’t believe in the bible, stop talking about it and defending it. You don’t believe it and no Christian who knows anything about the bible has the right to pass judgement on you and more to the point, has no business holding you to a christian standard if you are not a christian. If you are not a christian, I would surely not judge someone simply for being a christian just like you don’t anybody judging you simply for being gay.

  41. Sei

    December 30, 2008 at 12:18 pm

    Might I ask you what Bible you are using?

    My version of the Bible- err…VERSIONS don’t mention Russia even existing and none of these prophecies even mention Russia.

    If you are using the Bible I THINK you are using, then I suggest that this discussion end now because even the man who originally translated that one disavowed it.

  42. p.Johanna

    December 30, 2008 at 12:18 pm

    i’ve heard of that theory before. since you are defending your faith…what are you? what sect do you belong to?

  43. Anonymous

    December 30, 2008 at 12:14 pm

    yes I’m sure thats true but Russia and all it’s allies were not happening at that time, Russia,Turkey, Syria, Lybia, Ethiopia, Iran, ect. and the EU (treaty of lisbon) picking its president in Jan 2009 look up treaty of Lisbon, our economy crashing and Jesus saying in Matthew 24 that this Generation that sees all this they will see his return the rebirth of Israel in 1948 that generation would see his return we are in that generation,I’m pretty sure its no a coincidence that all this is happening, faminies, wars, earthquakes, ect.

    Ohh wait perhaps it all evoloved

  44. Sei

    December 30, 2008 at 12:10 pm

    Oh yes, and on the whole thing of my faith.

    After many years of living in the South, discussing my faith and defending it from every single person who thought that they had a right to shove their faith down my throat, I awoke one day to realize that my faith is incredibly solid, firm, and not moving very far.

    Beyond that, I’m not going to discuss what my faith is.

  45. Anonymous

    December 30, 2008 at 12:08 pm

    Ezekeil propehsied this back when? way before 1980 597 b.c.
    And I’m talking biblical prophecy not “just people”
    and all of Russias other allies just happen to be conincidence that are also listed in Ezekiels propechy,

  46. Sei

    December 30, 2008 at 12:04 pm

    “explain it then? i’m sure you have more faith then I do”

    Explain what? That events are happening yet again in one of history’s most war ravaged regions? That every time something like this happens, someone, somewhere claims that this is the sign that the appocalypse is at hand? That they claimed that these passages proved that the world was going to end in 50AD, again in 500AD, 1000AD, and various points from one end to the other?

    How about we just start with a short list of everyone who’s ever conquered Israel in the last four thousand years or so starting with the Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Romans, Phenetians, Caanans, Arabs, British, French, Turks, and Hittites. The list is surely longer, but my specialization is not Middle Eastern studies and I only know this because I’ve done some anciliary research into the region due to a migration of Celts who came through there according to legend and overrode much of the area for a short time.

  47. Sei

    December 30, 2008 at 12:00 pm

    Anonymous,

    They had sex with children. That it isn’t recorded is because children were property and this occurrence wasn’t being noticed.

    Additionally, by our society, pedophilia goes up to the age of consent. WE would, today, consider this to be child abuse.

    You still loose this argument.

  48. Anonymous

    December 30, 2008 at 11:59 am

    explain it then? i’m sure you have more faith then I do

  49. Sei

    December 30, 2008 at 11:58 am

    Iran and Russia have been allies since 1980. They just haven’t been open about it.

    This current conflict in Israel mirrors the one in the 1960′s when, again, the end of the world was upon us via the same stupid prophecies.

    These prophecies did, indeed, come true, within about a hundred years of them being written. Then again, I know people who predicted the fall of the Soviet Union. They weren’t prophetic, they were just observant.

  50. Anonymous

    December 30, 2008 at 11:56 am

    nobody had sex with children adulthood begin at age 13 that is why they had barmitza parties