20 Responses to Transsexuality or Intersexuality: Are They The Same or Different?

1. 

   Danielle Reply

   January 31, 2012 at 1:27 pm

   So many liars, haters and hypocrites in this world.
2. 

   Danielle Reply

   January 31, 2012 at 1:22 pm

   Transgender people arnt recognize as intersexuals because of society, hospitals, the government, etc. are trying to control expenses. I would guess they figure, if transgender people would be catergories as intersexuals beings, then just like any other intersexual, if the intersexual desired a sex change, the government would pay for it because they are intersexuals. But if a transgender who isnt recognize as an intersexual person wants a sex change, she would be denied and the costs would not be covered by the government.
3. 

   Danielle Reply

   January 26, 2012 at 5:06 pm

   If a natal man has sexual relations with an intersexual man who has both a penise and a vagina, will that make them both gay? Obsviously not. So many inconsistancies in the Bible, so much confusion. Take for example Acts9:7, 22:7-….
4. 

   Marie Reply

   December 3, 2009 at 5:39 pm

   Penguirl said it best!!!!!!
5. 

   Penguirl Reply

   November 17, 2009 at 12:14 pm

   I was born transsexual. I knew at a very early age that I was not like the other boys, and the other children knew it too. The difference between intersex and transsexual is that the intersex condition is exhibited in the reproductive organs while the transsexual condition is exhibited in the brain. Human beings tend to treat brain differences as inferior to any other physical differences (just look at how women are treated compared to men the world over) but the brain is just another organ in the body. Neither intersex nor transsexual persons chose to be born how they are, it is simply the laws of nature. Neither condition is superior to the other and they are not that different.

   However it is the elitist, exclusive attitude of the intersex community in general, demonstrated here by Nicky, that makes me want absolutely nothing to do with them whatsoever.

   You can be as elitist, exclusive, and holier than thou as you wish, but if you exclude all others someday you will find yourself all alone.

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7. 

   Kay Reply

   June 11, 2009 at 4:19 pm

   One of the issues which concerns me about the medical studies is that they were primarily done on transgender subjects who had (quite rightly) been taking hormonal treatment in order to live in their identified gender. This is a HUGE confounding variable when it then comes to identifying any biological or structural differences in the brain, since there is no way of telling whether they were present before the hormonal treatment was initiated, or whether they occur as a result of the hormones.

   Interesting article though, thanks.
8. 

   Sei Reply

   April 12, 2009 at 6:50 pm

   BTW, Liv, I would not say that I come to a definitive conclusion. Rather, I come to a point where I just disregard the label and state that we, transsexual or intersexual, have many issues that confront us, and that our lives are hard.

   What I put in my longer explanation to Nicky is how I believe. However, when I write about this in a non-personal manner, I try to keep objective rather than reach a definitive conclusion.
9. 

   Sei Reply

   April 12, 2009 at 5:47 pm

   Liv,

   I present to you the proof of the controversy- Zoe Brain and Nicky.

   Nicky,

   There appears to be quite a lot of scientific data that says that transsexuality (note I am talking about transsexuality and not transgenderism, I am treating those two as separate as well) is genetic or physical.

   However, I do lean towards considering them to be separate and distinct. That transsexuality is not an intersexual condition because of the fact that there is a massive gender identity issue when it comes to transsexuality which is not necessarily inherent in someone with an intersexual condition.

   There are several instances of individuals who have been treated for transsexuality, even gone through all of the procedures to transition, and who have later been found to have partially developed ovaries, thus classifying them as intersexual as well as transsexual. There are also, certainly, more than enough cases of people who are born with an intersexual condition who are not unhappy or uncomfortable with their gender identity.

   Now, I also consider transsexuality and transgenderism to be two different issues. Most people who are transsexual want to be the sex opposite that which they were born. That this appears to be genetic and physical seems just about as conclusive as we can get; however, that does not mean it should be considered to be an intersexual condition. Transgenderism, for me, has more to do with gender expression than it does about physical, sexual, and emotional conflict. The problem with a lot of these terms is that there tends towards some ambiguity concerning them.

   Incidentally, though I may be wrong as I am not always certain about what I read in English, Zoe Brain is intersexual and not transsexual since her body was not induced into transitioning, but did so on its own. For me, while I am on hormones and have induced transitioning, I have always had a ‘cycle’ (since the age of 14) and shown signs of physical issues including breast grown without hormones. Since starting hormones, my cycle has become regular and normalized including cramping. However, I would not classify myself as intersexual because of the gender conflict that I have felt since I was little.

   Nicky, when I wrote this article, I sat down to write about a part of what is considered by some to be part of the LGBTI community, some would put it LGB2TI community, but I did not want to make an argument that the I should be lumped in with either T. I also wanted to spark discussion about it. What this is about is part of my trying to help us all decide what defines us. There are also a lot of transsexuals who cannot afford to get the testing in order to find out if there is a physical ‘abnormality’ which has gone undetected their whole lives.

   I have to ask you, then, do you consider people to be intersexual only if they have a physical issue such as ambiguous genitalia or do you consider people to be intersexual if they also have genetic ‘abnormalities’?

   However, thank you for commenting. I understand your passion about this subject. On the one hand, I agree with Zoe about transsexuality being genetic and physical, but I also agree with you that it should be treated separately from intersexuality.
10. 

    Nicky Reply

    April 12, 2009 at 12:41 pm

    Sei,
    The problem with that is their are transgender people such as Zoe brain who are pushing for intersex to be lumped with the transgender. They tend to disregard science and the hard core scientific data that transgender people are not intersex and their is no conclusive scientific proof that they are. The reason why they are doing it it to strengthen their numbers and make themselves look like they are a big community, when in fact they are a tiny disorganized community.

    So in Reality, intersex should stay far, far away from the transgender community and should never ever be lumped with the transgender.
11. 

    liv Reply

    April 12, 2009 at 10:34 am

    Controversy? There’s about as much controversy over transsexuals being interesexed as there is Jesus riding Dinosaurs. If you understand the science, and biology behind human development and gender differences it become very, very clear. It’s all one and the same. It’s evolution in action. It’s anomalies, genetic, chemical, etc… that may eventually create the future of the human race.
12. 

    Sei Reply

    April 12, 2009 at 7:22 am

    Zoe Brain,

    Thank you again for the informative post. I am going to be following through with this issue as time goes along.

    I have pursued this issue largely due to the fact that I have certain indicators that my physiology may be mixed. However, I have had trouble getting a physician to follow through with any testing which might prove conclusive. I am keeping a journal of what’s going on with me until I see my doctor again in about five months. I hope that he’ll be willing to help and order the tests.

    Again, thank you.
13. 

    Zoe Brain Reply

    April 12, 2009 at 6:47 am

    I can’t fault you for not knowing about this – it’s not exactly been heavily publicised. This may change though after the American Psychiatric Association annual meeting. There’s a symposium on this very subject:

    S10. The Neurobiological Evidence for Transgenderism

    1. Brain Gender Identity Sidney W. Ecker, M.D.
    2. Transsexuality as an Intersex Condition Milton Diamond, Ph.D.
    3. Novel Approaches to Endocrine Treatment of Transgender Adolescents and Adults Norman Spack, M.D.

    Each of the individual experiments is, on its own, not conclusive, merely indicative. The largest sample size is on the order of 200, and often 40 or less. However, in aggregate, and the fact that they come from independant researchers in different continents, some working in genetics, others endocrinology, others obstetrics or neurology or psychology, and all showing the same pattern, it’s most convincing. As is the complete lack of any contrary evidence, most unusual in science, where things are rarely so cut-and-dried.

    From a taxonomic viewpoint, transsexuality is merely a common form of Intersex. One that involves a somewhat cross-gendered brain in some ways. It is not Intersex per se, any more than CAI syndrome, or Kleinfelter syndrome, or PMD syndrome, or 5ARD syndrome are Intersex. They’re all quite different syndromes, but all Intersex conditions, subsets if you will.

    Whether, given the social implications Transsexuality should be formally classed as an Intersex condition is another matter. There’s much argument about what constitutes an Intersex condition anyway. Nick/Nicki’s condition, Kallman syndrome, is not regarded as an Intersex condition by many, though I certainly would classify it as one, using either the UK Intersex Association or Organisation Intersex International definition.

    In Australia, where I live, the Full Bench of the Australian \Family Court ruled that, and I quote from the Re Kevin decision in 2003:
    At paragraph [252]: ‘The traditional analysis that they are “psychologically” transsexual does not explain how this state came about. For example, there seems to be no suggestion in the evidence that their psychological state can be explained by reference to circumstances of their upbringing. In that sense, the brain sex theory does not seem to be competing with other explanations, but rather is providing a possible explanation of what is otherwise inexplicable’.

    At paragraph [270]: ‘But I am satisfied that the evidence now is inconsistent with the distinction formerly drawn between biological factors, meaning genitals, chromosomes and gonads, and merely “psychological factors”, and on this basis distinguishing between cases of inter-sex (incongruities among biological factors) and transsexualism (incongruities between biology and psychology)’.

    At paragraph [272]: ‘In my view the evidence demonstrates (at least on the balance of probabilities) that the characteristics of transsexuals are as much “biological” as those of people thought of as inter-sex’

    Since 2003, as you can see by the dates on many of those articles, the evidence has grown considerably stronger, from “balance of probabilities” to “beyond reasonable doubt”.

    The courts in Spain have gone further – after reviewing the scientific evidence and expert witnesses, they concluded that transsexuality was just another intersex condition, and said so explicitly.

    Finally, there are a number of cases where the border between Transsexuality and Intersex is blurry. About 1 in 10 of people classed as “Transsexual” are actually Intersexed children who were surgically assigned a gender shortly after birth. In about 1 case in 3, the assignment does not match the neurology, and transsexuality results. There are also two common Intersex conditions, 5ARD syndrome and 17BHDD syndrome, where the symptoms include a “natural sex change” from female at birth to male later in life (though that over-simplifies). Male to female natural sex changes, while they do happen, are so rare that they can be ignored (less than 1% of all natural sex changes), and are not well understood.

    For those with 5ARD or 17BHDD who are brought up as girls, about 1 in 3 have their transsexuality cured by the natural change, 1 in 3 “go with the flow” as they are BiGendered, able to function adequately in either gender, and 1 in 3 become transsexual as the result, unless they get emergency surgery to prevent the change. See “Gender change in 46,XY persons with 5alpha-reductase-2 deficiency and 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase-3 deficiency”. by Cohen-Ketternis.

    Lest I be thought inhuman in saying that those with a natural male to female change can be ignored, for they are living, breathing human beings, from a scientific viewpoint, they’re so rare that no firm conclusions can be drawn. All except one known case had existing transsexuality cured, one case acquired it. But with less than 30 documented cases worldwide, we’re statistical outliers. I say “we” because I’m one of them, hence my interest in the area.

    See Intersex: Case studies in COSMOS science magazine, http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/features/print/1462/intersex-case-studies
14. 

    Sei Reply

    April 12, 2009 at 5:08 am

    Nicky-

    You will notice that I make a very specific point not to conclude anything. While it may please some to classify transsexuality in with intersexuality, I am not certain that I like that. Not all intersexuals have the gender identity issues that many transsexuals do. I really did not want to push the idea of them being identical. While the intersexual community does tend to get lumped in transgender/transsexual. I would like to make an argument that it should be a separate category.

    Zoe-

    I was working off the data I had available. So, I did not know that there were as many studies as there had been. I was working off of sample size more than anything else. Small samples are considered less reliable. However, if there have been multiple studies showing the same thing, then we have a large enough sample to make conclusions. Thank you for your post.
15. 

    Zoe Brain Reply

    April 11, 2009 at 11:46 pm

    It’s hardly “small research”. Although each experiment has only involved a handful of people, there’s been hundreds of experiments, and you can say that perhaps 10% of all TS people in some European countries have been tested, all with the same results. For other, less controversial medical conditions with the same prevalence, accepted conclusions are based on far less evidence.

    Some of the papers on the subject: I have a list of 320 that will be used at the next American Psychiatric Association annual meeting, in the seminar S10 “The Neurobiological Evidence for Transgenderism”

    Regional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualism by Luders et al in Neuroimage. 2009 Mar 30.
    Quote:
    …MTF transsexuals show a significantly larger volume of regional gray matter in the right putamen compared to men. These findings provide new evidence that transsexualism is associated with distinct cerebral pattern, which supports the assumption that brain anatomy plays a role in gender identity.

    Male-to-female transsexuals show sex-atypical hypothalamus activation when smelling odorous steroids. by Berglund et al Cerebral Cortex 2008 18(8):1900-1908;
    Quote:
    …the data implicate that transsexuality may be associated with sex-atypical physiological responses in specific hypothalamic circuits, possibly as a consequence of a variant neuronal differentiation.

    Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041
    Quote:
    The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder.

    Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation. Swaab Gynecol Endocrinol (2004) 19:301–312.
    Quote:
    Solid evidence for the importance of postnatal social factors is lacking. In the human brain, structural diferences have been described that seem to be related to gender identity and sexual orientation.

    A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.
    Quote:
    Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones

    A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity. by Garcia-Falgueras et al Brain. 2008 Dec;131(Pt 12):3132-46.
    Quote:
    We propose that the sex reversal of the INAH3 in transsexual people is at least partly a marker of an early atypical sexual differentiation of the brain and that the changes in INAH3 and the BSTc may belong to a complex network that may structurally and functionally be related to gender identity.

    As for the cause of cross-gendered neurology, we have strong evidence that hormonal environment in the womb is causative, along with genetic pre-disposition in boundary cases.

    Androgen Receptor Repeat Length Polymorphism Associated with Male-to-Female Transsexualism by Hare at al Biological Psychiatry Volume 65, Issue 1, Pages 93-96 (1 January 2009)

    A polymorphism of the CYP17 gene related to sex steroid metabolism is associated with female-to-male but not male-to-female transsexualism by Bentz et al Fertility and Sterility , Volume 90 , Issue 1 , Pages 56 – 59
16. 

    Nicky Reply

    April 11, 2009 at 8:46 pm

    Even as an intersex person, I don’t recognize any transgender person as an intersex because under the current scientific rules, they are not intersex and they do not have a verifiable genetic DNA condition.
17. 

    Nicky Reply

    April 11, 2009 at 8:45 pm

    Oh please. The current scientific community out their will not put transgender people with the intersex people. Mainly because transgender people do not have any genetic component that can be verified and backed up decades of research.

    The problem here is that transgender people want to connect with the intersex people so they can legitimize their condition. They can claim intersex, when the science out their says they don’t have a genetic component and are not intersex to begin with.

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20. 

    Firebolt Reply

    April 11, 2009 at 10:30 am

    While transsexuality might appear to be genetic and physical it is also mental, unlike intersexuality. I’m not very familiar with the latter but I think that it has solely genetic and physical nature. Granted, intersex individuals may or may not identify with the gender ‘assigned’ to them surgically but that depends on the doctor’s choice at birth.

    Like you said, there is a lot of controversy over what exactly qualifies as intersexuality. Hence, it is better not to merge transsexuality – which is already well defined – with it on the basis of such a small research as this.