The Manhattan Declaration- where does it lead? Church’s Hate Gay Agenda
By Melanie Nathan: With the potential to give all Church’s a bad rap, a diverse group of Christian leaders joined together Nov. 20 to declare a commitment to defend the sanctity of human life, biblical marriage and religious liberty without compromise. One hundred and fifty evangelical, Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox signers said they were coming together to “embrace our obligation” to speak and act in support of the dignity of all human beings, marriage as the union of a man and a woman, and the freedom to express religious convictions. It is imperative that Church leaders and those of faith who disagree with this, not remain silent, but provide the backlash such hate deserves.
The 4,700-word statement, yet another reproach for the LGBT communities, named the Manhattan Declaration, asserted: “[W]e will not comply with any edict that purports to compel our institutions to participate in abortions, embryo-destructive research, assisted suicide and euthanasia, or any other anti-life act,” the statement says, “nor will we bend to any rule purporting to force us to bless immoral sexual partnerships, treat them as marriages or the equivalent, or refrain from proclaiming the truth, as we know it, about morality and immorality and marriage and the family. We will fully and ungrudgingly render to Caesar what is Caesar’s. But under no circumstances will we render to Caesar what is God’s.”
”If you look at the Manhattan Declaration, we are clear that we see a genuine increase in the threat, especially on the sanctity of life front,” said Robert George, a Roman Catholic and a professor at Princeton University. “That’s the result of the federal government having an administration that is deeply committed to legal abortion and [government funding] and a majority in both houses of Congress that share that commitment…. We could have said many of the things that we are saying today a year ago, but some of the things we are saying today have an urgency to them as a result of the [Obama administration].”
This declaration was drafted in last summer and was worked upon for several months before it was declared on Friday by the leaders of Conservative Christian communities.
The Conservative Christian communities in this declaration are implored to disagree with all rules and regulations that accept any ideals against Christian doctrines, marriages in same sex and abortion. The leaders of Christianity supporting the declaration stated, “They are motivated and come from the deepest resources of our faith.” They also added that they could have made the declaration earlier but they consider this declaration to be more relevant for the present and future. According to the advocates of this declaration, ‘historic understanding of marriage’, ‘religious liberty’ and ’sanctity of life’ are the major highlights of this declaration.
Yet, in snide hypocrisy these so called Leaders of Catholic, Evangelical and Orthodox groups were present during the declaration and made it clear that the declaration does not have any political interest.
So yes, those of a faith that declares its hate – you may – but do not take the majority of Americans for fools, for we believe that you are in truth endeavoring to impact politically. I trust that the majority of true Christians will declare opposition to this statement that purports to speak for all of faith- because it is simply not so for those who subscribe to G-d as a loving G-d.
Let us not forget the way the various Churches and doctrines have been used to pronounce upon policy through the world over many an era; in modern times we can look to the abhorrent example of Apartheid. Born from Calvinism in Europe and transported to South Africa via the arrival of Jan Van Riebeck in 1652 on the Shores of the Cape, developed a group who considered themselves a nation of people, the Afrikaner, a white minority in Southern Africa. They used gunpowder and bible under the Dutch Reform Church’s teachings to ensure that black people were ruled undeserving of equality, that black Africans had an inferior place, one of servitude in a society of religious fervor. In 1949 Apartheid was born, a direct concomitant of these interpretations of the Bible and that birth was engendered in the form of LAW, yes legislation that declared racial prejudice legal, but also institutionalized the required compliance with its discriminatory codes.
By: Melanie Nathan,
www.nathan@privatecourts.com
www.visualcv.com/melnathan
Note Photo: Consist of Archbishop Wuerl/
Updated – Donald William Wuerl (born November 12, 1940) is an American prelate of the Roman Catholic Church. He is the sixth and current Archbishop of Washington, having previously served as Bishop of Pittsburgh from 1988 to 2006. Evangelicals like Chuck Colson, Roman Catholics like Archbishop Donald Wuerl, and the other religious leaders who signed the “Manhattan Declaration” don’t seem to understand that justifying discrimination in the name of religious freedom is dangerous to society.
UPDATED: By now we have all heard about the Manhattan Declaration put out by various religious right figures and groups urging, among other things, non-cooperation with laws that in any way recognize same sex couples. It has been condemned in many circles and for good reason. Wayne Besen of Truthwinsout.org said the following: “This is a disturbing call for anarchy from a group of radical clerics and activists who believe they don’t have play by the same rules as other taxpaying Americans.” And according to the blog Instaputz, there is another reason to not only oppose this document but also raise the alarm about it. Some of the names those signing the declaration aren’t a surprise. They are the usual folks who oppose lgbt equality – Tony Perkins, James Dobson, Maggie Gallagher, Gary Bauer, etc.
Related articles by Zemanta
- The Manhattan Declaration – Go Sign it! (liveactivecultures.net)
![Reblog this post [with Zemanta]](http://img.zemanta.com/reblog_c.png?x-id=cbe94978-5321-414f-98fc-515213463528)
Loading ...
There is simply no love quite like Catholic/Christian hate.
A true christian loves all people,including gays.Being gay is a sin,but there is alot of sin in the world.God will be the judge…
You are a bigot that needs to wake up and smell the coffee.
” The irony is that some of today’s ugliest bigots posture themselves as socially “progressive” and work in politics or the mass media, or both.” MOST REV. CHARLES J. CHAPUT OFM, CAP.
http://catholicexchange.com/2009/11/19/124269/
Neither the Manhattan Declaration, nor the handful of Catholic bishops and evangelical leaders who created it, speak for most Christians, much less people of other faiths. Read another religious viewpoint here: http://www.religiousinstitute.org/news.
Typical this came from NY, usual corruption story out of there, usually its the mob or the cops, now its the fucking priests, well they always had a hand in or a blind eye turned didnt they. You know what, fuck the religious morons, wasnt there just something in the news not too long ago about priests diddling little boys? How moral is that?
Religion is the reliable font of much of mankind’s hatred, cruelty and hypocrisy. The Manhattan Declaration is therefore no surprise.
The hypocrisy is sending men to war and then at the same time funding the murder of children!
Yeah, that’s what Mao and Hitler thought too! “Those hateful religious people going around helping the poor and turning the other cheek! How dare they…Doing all that good stuff, it makes us religious haters look bad!”
It’s breathtaking to see all the hate, intolerance and religion bashing that goes on by Glenn and his “run from the truth” types!
Where in the world do you find anything hateful in this document? There’s no hate in a single word of it. I think you’re labeling it ‘hateful’ just because you don’t like it and don’t want to acknowledge its truth.
scragsma there is nothing “true” in this rant. And it dehumanizes gay people and their relationships.
But since this is obvious to all who have brains, clearly you are a brainwashed anti-gay religiotard. So it’s probably pointless trying to explain it to you.
It is not the word HATE – it is the meanint of teh Declaration and the foresight as to where it could lead…. hence the Apartheid Analogy.
They are denying the humanity of gay people. The catholic church calls them intrinsically disordered. eg Crazy.. The Catholic hitler, not yet excommunicated, threw along with Jesus own people the Jews, the gays and the mentally disturbed into the ovens.
Of course the real mentally disturbed was Hitler himself. Who came to power by leveraging thte hatred of the Jews.
And 50 million died for the ”church of life” and the maniacs it created.
BTW, the german pope Just UNexcommunicated a Bishop Williamson, who is a holocaust denier. At least Argentina, where he was living, threw him out out of the country.
The lessons of your youth, Il Papa, live a long time. Lessons of one born and brought up from 1928 in Nazi Germany
No wonder Catholcis by the boatload are becomeing Lapsed, or joining other churches
May God have mercy on your soul. We will not
This article seems to ignore a key paragraph in the Declaration –
We acknowledge that there are those who are disposed towards homosexual and polyamorous conduct and relationships, just as there are those who are disposed towards other forms of immoral conduct. We have compassion for those so disposed; we respect them as human beings possessing profound, inherent, and equal dignity; and we pay tribute to the men and women who strive, often with little assistance, to resist the temptation to yield to desires that they, no less than we, regard as wayward. We stand with them, even when they falter. We, no less than they, are sinners who have fallen short of God’s intention for our lives. We, no less than they, are in constant need of God’s patience, love and forgiveness. We call on the entire Christian community to resist sexual immorality, and at the same time refrain from disdainful condemnation of those who yield to it. Our rejection of sin, though resolute, must never become the rejection of sinners. For every sinner, regardless of the sin, is loved by God, who seeks not our destruction but rather the conversion of our hearts. Jesus calls all who wander from the path of virtue to “a more excellent way.” As his disciples we will reach out in love to assist all who hear the call and wish to answer it.
No what we ignored in this article is its primary author is Charles “Chuck” Colson.
For those who don’t know who Mr Colson is, he was the was the Special Counsel for President Richard Nixon from 1969 to 1973… and was the founder of Nixon’s White House Special Operations Unit (the so-called “Plumbers”). ThePlumbers’ burglary of Pentagon Papers-leaker Daniel Ellsberg’s psychiatrist’s office in September 1971. The Pentagon Papers were military documents about the Vietnam War which helped increase opposition to the war. Colson hoped that revelations about Ellsberg could be used to discredit the anti-Vietnam War cause.
Colson authored the 1971 memo listing Nixon’s major political opponents, later known as Nixon’s Enemies List.
Colson sought to hire Teamsters thugs to beat up anti-war demonstrators and proposed firebombing the Brookings Institution and stealing politically damaging documents while firefighters put the fire out.
It was said “Colson would walk over his own grandmother if necessary.”
Just After taking the Fifth Amendment on the advice of his lawyers , and just before being sentenced to jail, Colson “found god” and was rewarded for his conversion with a short stay in a country club prison in Alabama.
The other major player in the Declaration is Archbishop Tom Dolan… who was up to his neck in the Catholics church cover up of the child molestation scandal.
If you are worried about sinners… worry about the sinners who authored this piece of sh… HATE
“just as there are those who are disposed towards other forms of immoral conduct.”…. these very words serve to endorse y my argument – a feigned judgment because only G-d gets to Judge – not even Jesus, especially because many of us Jesus is not the son of G-d, nor a Messiah, in fact a very nice gentleman who is probably doing somersaults in his grave right now. Then there are those who do not believe in G-d. How can I judge them? The ultimate judgment ment is clearly not going to happen here on Earth, if at all, for some. Personally I believe in a totally different spiritual world than you – does that give you the right to call my lesbian relationship immoral? I do not think so- Therein lies the HATE , so thanking you very much for addiding more evidence to my position on the Manhattan Declaration. Sheez I hope New York divorces itself from the name!!!
The minute you purport to be my Judge by calling my good life immoral is the moment you hate me!
The minute you take the law to abuse other people’s right to religious freedom and faith , then you are unjust!
They have two sides of theirr mouth. And have mastered the technique of using both of thtem at the saME time.
Hatred of God’s children of any stripe, color, orientation, ethnicity etc is the true moral abomination.
There is no comparison between race and homosexuality. It’s an apples and oranges comparison because race is an immutable physical characteristic, while homosexuality is a behavioral inclination like smoking.
Homosexuals really have the right to talk about hate because your movement is based on hatred of traditional Christianity and modesty. Let’s agree to disagree agreeably and move on with life.
I thought you wanted tolerance, but clearly you want supremacy. Lastly, saying that homosexuality and heterosexuality have anything in common is purely subjective. WIthout heterosexuality you folks never would have been born. Homosexuality is the height of irrationality.
No, actually it’s almost the other way around. From a scientific viewpoint — google this if you don’t believe me — race does not exist. The entire spectrum of what you call “immutable physical characteristics” of “race” does not exists. Any anthropologist will tell you that “race” is governed by no less than 10 genes and that EVERY “racial group” actually has the ability to express any combination of those genes. Race is a social construct. And actually, Homosexuality is not. Why do you believe that homosexuality is somehow inferior because “without heterosexuality you folks never would have been born. Homosexuality is the height of irrationality.” — why do you think that homosexuality is something else other than a variation of the human experience?
There is a comparison because balck and white relationships in South Africa were ouytlawed by the APARTHEID laws and made criminal. Police climbed up drainage to catch people in teh act, arrested them and carted them off to Jail and kept them tehre without trial sometimes for a very long time. How did they justify it? They said it was IMMORAL!!!
Second reason its a perfect analogy. THis comparoson is NOT about race being the same as homosexuality – ignorance shines bright when you fail to see that it is an analogy as to where such judgment under your relgious belief can lead. The Dutch Reformed Church may well have used the Towe of Babel to explain why balck and white people should not marry. It was an interpretation – one small example of where religious interpretation and buolt up fervor can lead. Thanks for your comment and please take another look at life.
What a silly statement, but thanks anyway. Without heterosexual rapists and criminals would have been born too. Rediculous. It is what you can do with Statements like this declaration that makes the anology perfect. Its about how the church can hide behind the bible to promote a hate agenda. this is what the Afrikaners did in in South Africa. Hence the comparison. Our movement was not bo rn from hate – you are right it was born from our Mothers’ wombs. Any preceived animosity by LGBT people is in direct response to defense and survival at the hands of your brutal judgment.
I received this e-mail about 10 minutes ago and was given permission to post it here by its author Joel G.Right on, Melanie.
I wish someone would attempt to actually quantify the number of people, including Catholics and Evangelicals who actually subscribe to such abhorrent statements. My gut tells me that even among such conservative Christian groups, there are significant numbers of people who do not. American Catholics have always rejected dogmatic church doctrine. I would bet that a majority of them are not anti-marriage, are for gay rights, and/or do not support the statements of this pronouncement.
Prop 8 was basically 50-50 among voters. Voters are the people who get rallied and energized by the politically savvy and the propagandist opportunists. We all know that that vote was nothing more than a direct result of a poor campaign (a really bad campaign, actually) by the good guys and a ton of money from the fear mongering haters. Yet, the best they could do was 50% of a very small number of Califonrnians in June election.
Undoubtedly, there are states whose populations cannot be reached right now. We’ll have to check back with them in 10 years. There are so may places in the country that will reject this hyperbolic rhetoric out of hand. The premise is ridiculously flawed in that no Federal, state or local government can make a church do anything except possibly pay taxes if they run afoul of tax laws, comply with zoning ordinances and stop molesting children. Other than that, no religious organization will be forced by law to marry anyone, do an abortion, or assist in a suicide. I really think most people know that there is no legislation out there forcing the churches to do anything.
I am not complacent. We should always speak out against hate. But I do not fear that this drivel represents the thinking of a majority of Americans or even a majority of religious people. Then again, maybe I just spend too much time in Marin.
The American Medical, Pediatric, Psychological, Psychiatric , and Psycholanalytical associations all say that sexuality is a built in base emotional construct of all people, str8 and gay.
What you say smacks of the inquistioon, when people who dared to challenge the infallibility of the Pope, and his absolute truths(or ignorances) were tortured and burned at the stake by the church of life.
What is the difference between those who hate gays in the name off God and those who hate gay Christians, catholics, jews, etc?
Answer: The second group took flying lessons back in early 2001.
This declaration is a miscarriage of so called: “Religious Freedom” . According to one writer in the Episcopal Cafe this declaration: “But for the signers, religious freedom does not extend to those who would bless same-sex unions out of religious conviction, or who of theological reflection understand that birth control is a matter of conscience and those who would pastor rather than condemn women who have had abortions.
The freedom to opt-out is not enough because conscience clauses for this group flows in only one direction and so, it follows, does religious freedom.”
There are positive voices for LGBT people, women and other groups, those voices need to continue to speak.
Professional polls say that 50% of catholics under 30 support gay marriage, not just CUs etc. And a Rutgers poll said that 48 % of Catholics support gay marriage – exactly the same percentage as by which the Prop 8 and Prop 1
Professional polls say that 50% of catholics under 30 support gay marriage, not just CUs etc. And a Rutgers poll said that 48 % of Catholics support gay marriage – exactly the same percentage as by which the Prop 8 and Prop 1 lost.
The catholic call for the end of Abortions, btw, is just a smokescreen to hide their hatred of gay people, because they don’t subscibe to their so called faith.
And the Christians behind this abomination are the of the same religious culture that bullwarked slavery and created the KKK and segregation to replace it. Also justified as per the bible.
Sort of makes the its a choice argument moot. The Blacks had no choice they were black, and no choice re how they were treated as slaves.
An excellent expose on the so called christians was the statement by PAt Robinson – who said “the Hatians deserved the terrrible earthquake, because they made a pact with the devil in 1830>”
The pact was a pact with the french, who ended their slavery and gave them their freedom.
The true mental illness of the world is the catholic hierarchys’ – so many catholics know this but cant yet make the break re how the church pincers them between the threat of hell, the guilt trips from confession, and the promise of life everlasting. For me, being in Heaven would be worse then hell, if these people were t here.
But I think there is a real long term problem with the translation from the Aramaic, to the Roman to the greek etc. The meaning of the words HEAVEN and HELL are reversed.
For more thoughts about positive approaches to Christian Spirituality and LGBT people, please visit my blog at http://philipsmanythoughts.blogspot.com
Thanks Philip – I cant wait to see it and your comments are much appreciated.
Thanks Paula for the addition. We can still provide about three more parts to this article, especially as we not the comments. Truly this article is incomplete without the comments because it paints the very picture about which we speak. It is where hate rears its ugly head behind purported misunderstanding and incredibly reveals an ignorance that takes its solace behind interpretation.
Thanks for your support and to all who reside in reality. Mel.
Mel my point would be that Colson’s behavior during the Nixon years could only be called pathological… and sociopathic… that kind of behavior does not go away… and in Colson case he has just found new targets..
In the RCC’s case… well they have been trying to find a scapegoat for the whole Child abuse scandal for sometime now.
Why do you discriminate against a father who marries his daughter, a woman who wants to marry a man with three wives, a man who wants to marry an animal? Where do you draw the line? Is it okay for a grown man to marry a child? If you don’t support that you are intolerant. The reality is you are running from truth and hate those who disagree with you.
The catholic church scapegoated the gays for its abuse of children. Epidemic here in the USA, in Ireland (google Christian brothers – Ireland), and apparenly also italy – I cant read italian unfortunately, or fortunately.
The Bishops own multimillion $$ report on the scandal said that gay priests were no more apt to abuse the children they were “protecting” then str8 priests.
Sexuality is a base human instinct. When you cut it off early, it ultimately rears its ugly head later. the victimizer picks up at the mental age where they were cut off. Give me a break on protecting the children from gays. Hypocrisy – time to protect the children from the church.
And why did the church hide these crimes for so long, and simply move the priests to new locations where they could continue their dastardy deeds of “protecting the children”.s
First because the priests bring in money, and they really worship the golden calf. Second – because the rot reaches all the way to the top.
Seems to me that even belonging to the catholic or the rightg wing evangelical churches is just like punching your own ticket to hell.
Why take a chance.
Has anyone contacted the Unitarian Church and other pro-actual-human-dignity churches to see if they can put out a statement to counter “the Manhattan” project? When I first started reading it, I thought that it was going to be a statement in favor of full equal rights: “embrace our obligation to speak and act in support of the dignity of all human beings,…” but then of course came the words, in that same sentence, which belied the notion just stated.
“Beliefnet” has a similar glaring self-contradictory “rules of conduct” policy. It states that users agree:
“By registering as a member of Beliefnet, you agree that you will not display content, or engage in any activity, that: [...] condones or may provoke violence toward any individual or group on the basis of age, disability, gender, ethnicity, race, nationality, religion, or sexual orientation, even if religiously motivated”
however, there is a link to their “Hate Speech” policy (http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/hate.html), which defines hate speech as speech that:
“…sets up conditions for violence against one or more people, because they are a member of a protected group, in one of these ways: … dehumanizing or degrading them, perhaps by characterizing them as guilty of a heinous crime, perversion, or illness, such that violence may seem allowable or inconsequential; …”
I was happy to see that statement of support, until I scrolled a bit farther down and saw a whole section (6 paragraphs) entitled “What about homosexuality?” which was apparently set up to carve out a hug exception to what they had just said. Specifically, that section states, “You may express the belief that homosexuality is wrong, or that it is sinful.”
So in other words, this ecumenical religious website echoes the basic position of “peace and respect for the dignity of all human beings ….. except of course gays & lesbians.”
gays… lesbians… Muslims… Hindus…. Buddhist…. and pretty much anyone who is not a Christian… and ‘just like them’
All people are called by God to live a morally upright life. Called to chastity. All people gays too!!!!!
As we know those who reject this reject God, and then wonder why their lifestyle is not accepted and so their hatred builds up against Christians.
Who are you to question God’s actions? And are you a biblical scholar? Your literal interpretation is pretty fundamental . Fundamentalist like you confuse objective interpretation with personal belief. You interpret Scripture in light of your own beliefs rather than those of the author’s. And what the authors say is the unquestionable authority of God.
And my experience with your type is you haven’t read authoritative interpretations let alone real church documents. You just read gossip columnist like this one.
Well Jules… your Christians are not exactly very good neighbors… you follow leaders that time and again preach morality and then live the most immoral lives that can be imagined… and when people see this… and will not join the mindless minions like yourself.. you get angry and try to pass laws that will MAKE them believe as you do.
Oh and please don’t post anymore free links to the Vatican… if they want to advertise their nonsense on MY site they will have to pay me to do so.
yes Jules as a matter of I have a Phd… in Classical Humanities and Biblical History.
Then you should know better. But you are blinded by false compassion and lies.
As talked about in the Declaration, christians do want peace for all man kind including gays & lesbians. When it talks about marriage it talks about accepting same sex unions and that they should have equal civil rights.
The Bible on the other hand is pretty clear about two of the same sex (laying with each other) being together sexually. It is not to be, period !
Not tough to figure out, nothing to debate, impossible to take out of context no matter what bible you’re using.
the Manhattan Declaration really clarifies alot of issues I feel. There isn’t any hate involved in it…….. its just time for Christians to start standing up for our beliefs no mateer the consequences.
The real goal of these groups, as they promote the anti-gay agenda, is to take away the civil rights of law-abiding, taxpaying, gay Americans and the religious liberty of pro-equality Americans. They want to use the government to impose their religious beliefs on the rest of us. If this happens, the thousands of American churches which support same-sex marriage will be prohibited from free exercise of their religious beliefs. All the while this is happening, we are assured that these actions are “loving.” Clearly, religious tyranny is NOT and never has been “love.”
Another ignorant statement.
Please read the declaration for yourself…. there is no hate.
http://www.manhattandeclaration.org/
All they are saying is they have a RIGHT to be Christian and will not yield to the trends of the day. The church has been around for 2000 yr’s, it will still be around for another 2000 + till the end of time when America is dust. Many people, Christian and non-Christian have very valid reasons to be against the propagation of the homosexual lifestyle. The gay mafia with their ‘thought police’ have no right to impose their morality on others.
It goes both ways Dina Little. The Christian Anti-gay hate movement is not the voice of all faith based groups. Either way they have no right to judge my lifestyle or to deprive me of my legal rights in the secular world simply based upon what THEIR church teaches them. I am denied 1,138 rights because people like you think my life is immoral. That is the motive – to sustain an anti gay sentiment that results in us being denied our inherent rights. What about this makes no sense to people? What is so difficult about separating Church from State? Whatever way you choose to look at it – you can never tell me my realtionship is immoral- unless I enter through the door of your Church. Please stay out of the door to my secular life. Your comment may be relevant if the Church was not trying to immpact our secular life.
Where and when can a government force a church to recognize gay marriage. I dont get it. AND Why would a gay person even want to go near a Church that does not love or accept them?
Melanie,
Oh…so your saying in secular life you have ‘free reign’ to terrorize who ever you like? I see. Because that is what the gays do. They go into churches and throw things at little old ladies, chant bawdy songs, interrupt communion, oh, and my favorite is threatening to ‘out’ gay priests( those who do not want to be identified with a disordered lifestyle BTW:
http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1721 ),
and do it all in the ‘name of freedom. No you do not have that right! It does go both ways. Christians designed this constitution. I have the constitutional right to do business with who I please. If I don’t want to associate with a gay co-worker beyond the professional setting, I will not. If I am a business owner, and I don’t want to do business with gays, I have the right to refuse. If I have a business for say, wedding planning, and a gay couple comes to me for planning a wedding, and I refuse their business and the government tries to force me to do business with them, they would be infringing on my rights of free association and religious beliefs. And I have the right to protect MY children from the gay lifestyle. Whats going on in Massachusetts has gone beyond the pale where they arrest fathers who refuse to allow their sons to be indoctrinate about gays in kindergarten and fine pastors who refuse to perform wedding ceremonies. Really, I used to have some sympathy for gays, but when they start indoctrinating children that gay is good instead of an unfortunate illness, which it is, I refuse to allow my children to be indoctrinate. The fact is, the gay world is pushing their beliefs on others. However, most Christians have caught on that the government no longer honors the constitution and is in fact, hostile to small business owners in the first place, so instead of directly refusing them business, we simply say we are all booked up and only do business through word of mouth and personal referral. Christians are getting more and more careful. And as an aside, no…I do NOT allow my children to visit children who have ‘two mommies’ or ‘two daddies’. Again, that is MY constitutional right to freely associate or not associate with whom I please. This Manhattan Declaration is only the beginning. You can’t have our business’s, and you can not absolutely cannot ever…have our Children.
Colson was on a documentary a while back with the mass murderer who butchered and cut up childre – Jeffrey Dahlmer.
He showed Dahlmer as an example of how “Jesus cures”, Two btw, convicted criminals together.
Dahlmer, in a voice that was more mechanical then the computer voices of the early computer voice messsages, said that “Everyone knows evolution is a lie”.
No kidding = this guy could have been a rote machine, and that is what he was. Its obvious part of his brain was not functioning. at all.
Buyt Colson, another psychopath, was smiling at his work.
BTW, Dahlmer was brought up in a very christian family. Probably the source of his conflict between sex deisre and religious prohibitions. Usually the source of the problems that generate most serial killers, Most of whom are maless who kill women in the conflict between desire and religion tearing apart their subconcious – a conflict between built in desire and religious prohibitions about dirty sex.
And God sent a messenger to solve Dahlmers problems – another prisoner, who bashed in Dahlmer’s head.
Most seriously bad people – not just theives- in prison have a history of some kind of abuse in their life,which makes them feel like society is the enemy.
Wonder how many of those people were abused by their own priests or ministers. Who then threaten the youth that if they tell, hell will awaits them.
Notie the hate words “Gay Mafia” and ” thought police”"
I thought the mafia was almost all catholic, and the church was glad to take their money, and you can be sure the church knew who they were and what they did.
And the “thought police” – well, if Germany had “thought police” when the as yet UNecommunicated Hitler ranted against the Jews, he would have spent not a few years, but his whole life in jail.
And WWII almost certainly would not have happened.
No wonder countries like Germany etc have Hate speech laws. \
Also too bad saudi arabia – home to extremist Islam, didn’t have hate speech laws before 2001. Of course they are the perfect example of a theocracy. The extremists religious types get to run the culture of the religion. While the royal family – 10000 – 20000 people, and their pals go to the Emirates around them with our oil money. There they smoke, drink, eat pigs, and screw women and men outside of marriage.
And this is the goal of the so called Christian extremists in the USA, tied in with the catholic church.
Total selfishness, greed for power, and hypocrisy barely touches on the depravity of these people’s so called moral values.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or ***prohibiting the free exercise thereof****; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
If the Government made a law forcing Christians to recognize gay marriage they would be infringing on the first Amendment rights of said Christians.
dina…. the government is not forcing Christian to do anything… what the government should doing is saying everyone has the SAME rights…. What you want as a Christian is the retention of the special rights you have had.
Melanie Nathan,
You are indeed an ignorant and dangerous woman. Have you ever read documents relating to the sanity of life and marriage by any church leader? THERE IS NO HATE. The hate is for murder of innocent unborn children, the distortion of true love and marriage between men and women created in God’s image and order in nature. You are so ignorant and foolish to be sucked into the culture of death. Wake up! Don’t forget life is short, but eternity is forever. I choose to live a good life, not evil!
jules
I do not want to call your religious beliefs into question or presume to know where you will spend your so called eternity, so please stay away from my religious beliefs. I am not getting into a religious argument here because it has no real relevance to my BLOG. My BLOG is saying that the Manhattan Declaration is dangerous because of the underlying intent which is so clear given the political claimet and the overt inuendos, That said I will gladly accept my ignorance in exchange for succombing to the manipulation you have been subjected to. Oh and by the way how about an arm wrestle – University degree for degree and we see who comes out the winner. Sorry could not resist.
oh please explain the sanity of life and marriage
after we get past the word SANITY – can you please explain why you do not support a constitutional ban on divorce – or do you? That has a much bigger impact on the sanctity of marriage than anything I can think of. Why does the Church not interfere with your roght to Divorce – ? Answer Hate – they dont hate you they hate Gays and lesbians
Typo correction, the word above was supposed to say ” sanctity of life.”
Melanie, you don’t impress me at all. I don’t give two hoots if you have a list of degrees after your name. Intelligence is no indication of wisdom. READ church documents and stop spreading lies about what religious leaders are actually saying. NO ONE HATES anyone. But to stand up and for the right to life is worthy of merit, and to protect true marriage means to protect the family and society at large. I’m not going into everything here with you because there are literally libraries full of documents that tell the truth about what the church teaches on abortion, homosexuality etc…. Go on I dare you to find out the TRUTH, at least stop spreading lies.
Truthfully I have no interest in reading Church documents to back up what I have read in the Manhatten Declaration. Didi yoiu read the 4,000 pages per chance? When I hear someone call my life, my family and my loving relationship immoral – I call that HATE plain and simple. What you do not get is that I do not believe in anything the Church has to say for itself. It is for Christians to believe, not me. I am a religious Jew- and my Rabbi would never sign such a document. That is why we have separation of Church and State so that we can hold the sacredness of our separate beliefs separate and practice our right to Freedom of Religion. ChristianReligious expression is for the Christian Church AND Not for State or Federal legislation, which is the motive behind the declaration… Re abortion and Gays and lesbians. Its a direct attack and it encroaches into secular territory.
Where on earth do Christians base their moral teachings? FROM THE TORAH &THE TEN Commandments as well as the Gospels and teachings of the Church Fathers!! AND not one of them contradicts the other. They are completely consistent , even to this day. When will true Jews adhere to their own scriptures & the commandments given to them by God? A GOD who has Himself rejected homosexual practice and murder! If you don’t want to listen to your own religion and live a moral life that advocates love , truth and humanity, then that is sad. READ and grow up.
Well said Jules.
Jules… Did you know in classical studies… religion and myth are considered one and the same.
If you want to believe in some myth… that is your right… but just keep it in your church and out of the government I pay for too.
Paula I don’t subscribe to your bigotry and falsehoods! Classical Mythology has NOTHING to do with religion. Tell the Government then not to force Christians to act or teach,or support anything that goes against their moral beliefs! Stay out of our religion, and away from our children.
Totally brainwashed by the church of lies.
the catholic church was behind th3e murder of 50 million Muslims during the crusades. Societies never forget, just as the Jews will never forget what the catholic hitler and his gang did to them. No wonder the muslims hate us.
then there was the inquisition,where people were tortured and burned at the stake by the church, for daring to say that the earth was round, not flat as per the church. And good priests who wanted to reform the church, Jews etc, were also treated the same. The inquisition continued in some fashion until the 18302,.
And Pope Benedicts previous job was to run the committee for the doctrine and purity of the faith – the successorr to the inquistion. The Cardinals picked the right man, didn’t they.
And during the 1000 year dark ages, the church burned at the stake women – millions of them, calling them witches. Which was a competing religion. Of course, the accuser and the church split the deceased’s property.
And often, guilt was decided by throwing them in a dirty cage, and looking to see if the vermin attacked them. The source of the more modern term “a jury of your peers”
Though we still suffer in so many ways from an uncontrolled Jury of the church. Who know so well how Hitler, their worst mass murder of modern ages, only killed two people by his own hand. One was a neice. The other was himself when the Russians were at the gates, looking for deserved revenge for the lost of 20 million people.
But the big point is that with his words, hitler, and his mostly catholic gang, killed 50 million people.
If you total this up, Easily a hundred million died for the church of life and the maniacs they created and still create in the name of God. m Of whom gays ate just their next victor of these psychopathic animals who always need someone to hate.
for all the Good Catholics and good christians who belong to the worst of the worst of the churches – examine your church’s history.
And remember you may be known by the company you keep. By man, and by God, at judgement day
And then there were
It’s amazing to me you people continue to try to push your agenda on the rest of the country when you make up a barely noticeable fraction. Everything has a breaking point, including ordinary Americans. I’m happy to see they are finally beginning to take action. I’m an atheist myself, and I don’t agree with everything the church wants to accomplish. However, I do believe there is such a thing as morality, and there is such a thing as tradition.
There is something to be said about the sanctity of marriage and of life. We would not be the country we are today, nor would Western civilization be what it is today, were it not for the foundations and ideals of Christianity. The erosion of traditional ideology and morality has had significant negative effects on our society. Your constant rally to essentially destroy the traditional definition of marriage will be the final nail in the coffin for America as we know it. As long as you continue to pursue this, along with all the other activism your brethren pursue, there will come a day when America has finally had enough. I gleefully look forward to the day that America wakes up from its sloth and its weakness, and the silent majority finally decides to take matters into its own hands. Perhaps this is the first small step towards that.
We may be a minority – but we are denied our civil rights, The Manhatten Declaration is a hateful document because it calls my relationship immoral. Plain and simple. Sean what erodes America does not have anything to do with whom I choose to love, and any erosion you refer to may have more to do with priests who sodomize children, Men and women who divorce their spouses and refuse to parent their children. Much delinquincy and crime seems to stem from the latter and from abuse of children, drug use, government not providing enough social services, lack of money for education, no jobs. Please do not scapegoat gay lifestyles for the problem in the country. That is how Hitler started and fuelled the Hate against the Jews. If you are going to reply please explain to me precisely how my gay marriage will hurt traditional marriage?
Traditional marriage is defined as a union between a man and a woman. It’s really that simple. By allowing for homosexual marriages you are effectively destroying the traditional definition.
As to your comments about divorce, this is true. However, why are divorce rates rising? The answer is clear: traditional morality in America has been eroding for decades. Why is it eroding? Because progressives and liberals have made it a point to redefine what it is to be American and what it is to be morally grounded. This country espouses weakness, and it is nurtured from an early age in our elementary school systems. We preach blind tolerance and indifference to injustice in the name of “better understanding” others. I of course am not referring to homosexuals necessarily with this statement, rather I am referring to all things I consider to be eating away at this country. For example obesity, Islam (in so far as its basic fundamentals are anti-western in nature, regardless of moderation or radicalism), illegal immigration, etc.
I actually don’t really care what you people do. In fact, I don’t think the government should be in the business of marriage anyway, and instead this should be a religious issue. If the catholic church doesn’t want to recognize gay marriage then they should be allowed to do so. However, the government, perhaps illegally, has made itself a major player when it comes to marriage and in so doing has become a playing piece in the war on traditional America. Therefore, I fully support the movement to ban gay marriage.
Now, to address your other radical causes. Who are the ones pushing for legalization of drugs, less or no jail time, and a free flowing southern border that allows anyone and everyone to pass through it? You and your brethren. You live in a state that is looking to legalize Marijuana, out of all things, to increase tax revenue. How disgusting is that? Many of the ills facing America today stems from your political ideology and your activism. You are such a tiny minority and yet you have managed to force many things on the rest of us.
Lets also talk about the social services you feel the government should be providing. Since when was it the role of government to provide social services? The role of government is to enforce and create laws, and to provide security through a standing army. All of these social programs that were created were done so through “interpretations” of the constitution and through amendments (see income tax). Who is it that has mired the country in legal lingo and usurped the power of congress and the people through judicial activism and liberal interpretation of the constitution? I dare say, you. California is a perfect example of what happens when you allow weak liberals to take over. The state is in absolute shambles, people are literally fleeing your little social experiment. You may want to throw up a wall to keep the citizens from leaving the womb of the People’s Republic of California. Otherwise, you’re going to run out of people to tax.
As for scapegoating homosexuals, I’m not, I am simply lumping you together as part of the problem. The problem is liberal ideology which has weakened this country and threatens to destroy it. The gay and lesbian agenda is part of the coalition that pursues the progressive agenda.
To sum it all up, the gay marriage issue is just one piece of the over all picture. The passage of universal health care is far more major. Should it pass, it will be the first major step towards civil war in this country. The vast majority of America is not socialist, and the tax burden is already extraordinarily high. They didn’t tolerate the expansion of government under the Republicans, and they certainly aren’t going to tolerate a far more sinister and extreme expansion under the Democrats. Either way is fine for me really. One way or another the country will right itself, it’s just a question of how violent it will turn out to be. History has proven this to be the case time and again.
You raise a lot of issues Sean – oncluding the fact taht conservatives have destroyed this Country – it crept upon us with Reagan’s murder of the middle class by cutting legally just services nad then you know who came along and for eight years presented an America to the entire world who had lost all morality by subjecting us to a war about lies. He and his henchmen murdered 4,000 Americans and a Millon Iraqi civilians and you are worried about gay marriage destroying anything? I just cannot fathom it. You preach abortion and you toss bombs on civilians. I love America and I love my people – I would never vote for anyone who purposefully puts anyone in harms way knowing the premise for doing so is all a big lie. Secondly all those conservative hypocrtits doing men in bathrooms, screwing around on their wives, and stealing billions from hard working citizens- you beg yje question Sean – that is how I society has been degraded. My marriage will never stop you from going to Church. My marriage will never take your religious freedoms. If this is truly about religious freedom, then you should have no problem about my Rabbi accepting my marriage. Bottom line you have 1,138 Federal rights by virtue of your civil marriage that I do not have. Why not give them up if you believe the State should nopt govern your marriage and it is merely a religious event. That would mean no shared social security for you, no survivor benefits, no joint tax returns, no ability to sponsor your French wife to stay in US, and I could go on… You enjoy the your freedom, of religion and you enjoy your civil rights. I enjoy my freedom of religion but I have limited civil rights.
It’s amusing to me that you claim Reagan killed the middle class by cutting social services. The middle class are the ones who end up paying for social services, and the middle class are the ones who don’t need social services. Furthermore, who votes Democrat? Lets think about this here a minute. People who rely on government handouts, people who believe in government hand outs and high taxes, and government employees who get nice pensions are the ones who vote Democrat. Now, how many middle class people in the private sector fit that description? Hardly any. That’s why there’s always been a big push to get people into government jobs and on the government payroll because Democrats can effectively buy votes using tax payer dollars.
As far as Bush goes, he isn’t the worst president ever, but he certainly wasn’t a good one. He was a social conservative with a neoconservative foreign policy and a liberal mindset when it came to government expansion. However, it was certainly preferable to what we have now; an unabashed communist who makes no secret of his desire to socialize America. Your rabid hysteria over the whole “Iraq war was a lie” reeks of 2003. You belie your fringe group radical mentality by shrieking all the catch phrases of Code Pink. It just gives further credence to my assertion that you are part of the progressive movement that represents only a tiny fraction of America but has managed to force its desires on the rest of us.
I won’t bother with the conservatives doing men in bathrooms comment, but I will address the “stealing billions” from hard working people. The hard working people is the middle class private sector that has to support the other half the population that works for the government on their tax dollars; that has to support the low life that feed off of government social services. The ones who keep these policies in place, the ones who created them in the first place, are the liberals/communist that you clearly are a part of. What’s even worse is that you don’t even have a real job; you’re an attorney which is about as bad as being a politician…maybe even worse. Try leaving California and getting a real job, you definitely don’t represent the middle class.
Bottom line is that as long as government ties taxes and other things to marriage, I will oppose gay marriage on the grounds that it destroys the traditional values of this country. As I’ve said before, the gay marriage debate is just a sideshow to the much larger issues that you champion. You and your peers continue to shove your social programs and progressive agenda down the throat of America and eventually there will be a backlash. There is no way for me to know how it will occur, but you need only look at history to see what happens when fringe minorities come to power and begin to impose their will on the majority.
Sean the backlash is now. You can attribute any larger agenda you want to me – and the gay community. I can take anything when it comes to fighting for the rights you have that I do not have. The only people willing to acknowledge my relevance are liberals. They are my lifeline to being treated equally. So you can spin it anyway you like, Simply you are unable to separate Church from State. I am not worried about the future because when my kids and their friends read this post, saved here for posterity, they will see statements such as your as ludicrous and unfair as we see some aspects of the past today.
Well said – sounds like what was said about inter-racial marriage being against the natural order. And freedom for blacks was unthinkable since they were only 3/5ths of a person
Morality can be defined many ways.
One of your ways is the hatred that gives us a 9/11 every single year of gay children,and yes str8 kids who are bullied about being gay, until they commit suicide – 3000 every year.
This is how you and your criminal churches protect children. Another way was to abuse children sexually by sex starved priests.
First the bishops own report on their high crimes said that abusing priests were no more apt to be gay then str8.
the abuse has its history in the ending of the right of priests to marry, sometime about 1000 years ago. Done so the church, not the wife would inherit the priests property.
And the queerest marriage of them all is performed by the church. When men in womens robes are married to an institution whose history is one of total horror in the name of God. The priests even get a ring.
And I note that Jesus never married. Does make one wonder, doesn’t it. Jewish orthodox priests – thats what he was in his time – a good and learned man in a time of ignorance marry.
But I’ve read that Jesus is the bride of the church, or maybe it was the other way around. Does sound like some kind of queer relationship.
There is nothing we can do,a s good str8 & gay people to change the minds of the corrupted. God, in time will perhaps show mercy for them, or drop them into the firepit for their hate.
But we can appeal to the good people who are simply misled by evil and hatred.
Sometimes I believe that the ultimate proof that mankind is descended from the animals via evolution is found in the religious haters, of any stripe, who always need some minority to hate to calm their soul. That is the proof of evolution . We are 97% the same genetics as the Bonobons, a type of Gorrila. And 93 % the same as chips re our genetics.
And the viciousness of the religious haters for others proves that the animal genes are still in us.
quote: he passage of universal health care is far more major. Should it pass, it will be the first major step towards civil war in this country. Unquote
Nice person. Does he wonder why virtually every other industrialized country in the world guarantees medical care for its people. And spends about 40% less then we do in the process of supporting the abortion we have.
i suspect he is also a supporter of “life”. In calling for civil war.
And he is certainly a republican. Whose base of voters is the southern religious culture that gave us slavery, the kkk, and segregation.
Mixed in with this persons inability to understand that we are all called to “love thy neighbor as thyself” – not let them die or go bankrupt due to lack or cost of medical care.
He is someone who worships the golden calf, forbdden by the bible. Tied in with the people who are so psychopathic that they always need someone to hate to show their love of God.
God save America from these people. And what has become of the Grand Old Party. Whose southern slave culture roots leave it horrified that we have our first black president.
That is the cabal who gave us the almost second great republican depresssion with their uncontrolled wall street bankers, who stole billions and awarded themselves millions in bonuses form the tarp money set up to help rebuild our economy. Tied in with our own religious taliban. Whose only goal is a christian theocracy
And then Bin Laden will have his wish. The world divided into two religious camps, hating each other. Andd religious hatred never ends.
The last time that happened was the 1000 year dark ages, when 50 million or more were murdered in the name of God crusades. No wonder the Muslims hate us
But it wont be 1000 years this time. It could be one day to the end of civilization, once the religious zealots of Islam get nuclear weapons. And our religious zealots reply in kind. And civilization will end. And the aborted children will be the lucky ones, for they will never have the least inkling of what happened to end their life.
BTW, some of the christian extremists actually believe the earth will be destroyed, Jesus will return, and only they the faithful will be saved. Some have even called for nuclear war to hasten his return.
Nice and thinking people, or proof that mankind did decend from animals. At least animals only kill to eat, they know nothing else.
Mankind was supposed to be better. But some of mankind created ultimat greed and ultimate hatred. In the name of God.
This is what the republican party has become. You will be known by the company you keep. By God.
I am not going to engage you in the study of Torah – But what fool does not know that it is subject to interpretation. Have you read it in Hebrew the way I have or have you had some Church translation? The Torah is in conflict with the New testament – because it cannot be read in conjunction with the new testament – it must be read and understood as a Jew – not as a Christian. The new testament DOES NOT EXISTS for a Jew. SO you admit you are basing your religion on Torah that is subjected to the New testament. What makes you think it can be the same? To throw “grow ups” at me is not going to change this picture Jules. No where in the Bible does G-d reject homosexuality as a realtionship between two persons. G-d speaks of homosexual acts in the context of war and rape. G-s does not condemn lesbian or homosexual relationships that are loving. Read it again. In Hebrew. In fact if you are referring to Sodomy I do not believe that is reserved for people of the same sex.
You missed my point. There is no misunderstanding in the interpretations of what the bible and Torah say on abortion and homosexuality. If you want another view let’s look at another account: The Jewish historian Josephus (AD 37 – c. 100) used the term “Sodomites” in summarizing the Genesis narrative:
“About this time the Sodomites grew proud, on account of their riches and great wealth; they became unjust towards men, and impious towards God, in so much that they did not call to mind the advantages they received from him: they hated strangers, and abused themselves with Sodomitical practices” “Now when the Sodomites saw the young men to be of beautiful countenances, and this to an extraordinary degree, and that they took up their lodgings with Lot, they resolved themselves to enjoy these beautiful boys by force and violence; and when Lot exhorted them to sobriety, and not to offer any thing immodest to the strangers, but to have regard to their lodging in his house; and promised that if their inclinations could not be governed, he would expose his daughters to their lust, instead of these strangers; neither thus were they made ashamed.” (Antiquities 1.11.1,3) [1] — circa A.D. 96)
Do you think Sodomitical practices were excepted anywhere in the Torah?NO. It was condemned and the teachings have not changed— only people erecting interpretations to suit themselves , mislead others and justify their lifestyle/actions. FINE, let them we don’t judge souls, God does. But when Christians are threatened to lose their religious freedom or unjust laws are made, then we stand up and fight for our rights.
melanie nathan
Posted on November 22, 2009 at 4:20 am (Edit)
Religious freedom is to stay in your Church shut the door and leave my civil rights under the secular law of this Country alone. The constitution provides certain inherent rights. Why is the Defense of Marriage act a law ? Because it takes away an inherent right for any couple to marry on a civil and secular level – . This proves that those who voted for marriage to be between a man and a woman recognize that gays in fact do have an inherent right to marry. Otherwise why take it away? There is nothing about gay marriage that forces any church to do anything – that is absolute fallacious nonsense. What the hell has helathcare reform got to do with Christianity. Jules Jules Jules you so reveal the irrrelevance of your stubborn argument in this comment. What can I say? SHould I say get it? The truth is I have purposely engaged you for my own sadistic and twisted amusement and if you want to continue bashing your head against the brilliance of my brain, be my guest, you will continue to make me laugh.
I suggest for Jules and sean that we enforce the old testament literally.
Have they worked on the sabbath. have they worn clothes of different clothes? Have they wasted their seed? Have they eaten pig and shellfish? Have they ever sassed their mother and father. Have they worshiped the golden calf wwhile their neighbor goes hungry?
For all these laws, they have violated, the old testament calls for death. Since I don’t believe in killing, would these people please show their love of the bible and God, by taking their own lives. And then God will judege
BTW the story about soddom and gommorah was actually about the laws of desert people, which even include the Islamics. You shall welcome your enemy into your tent and give him salt, that he may better survive the heat of the desert.
But soddom and Gommorah the people there wanted to rape the stranger. Not for sex, but for humiliation, which is what rape is all about, and sex is simply the gun.
The selective use of the bible has been used to murder more people than any other instrument in history.
And these people are of that ilk. They are truly mentally ill, or mentally deficient, and a threat to society.as a whole.
Which the wonderrful so many gay people I know are anything but. Loving couples supporting each other, while being treated as trash in the name of God.
We can guess how God will Judge. If I was Seean or Jules, I’d be on my knees praying for forgivenesss ultil the knees were worn out. then Maybe, just maybe God might mitigate your punishment for the corruption you spew in his name.
Amen.
And civilizaiton will be improved. And our gay friends
Perhaps these so self
What I find surprising that many people here are mentioning the bible as if they hold the truth for this or another.
There is a huge difference between Christianity and Judaism and although they both believe in the Torah, Christianity does not agree with our 613 mitzvot or the belief in Moses. They believe in, ,אברהם –Abraham and Christianity of course manifest itself hundred of years after Judaism was already practiced but I do not wish to discuss religion with Joel here or anyone else; all I want to say is this,
The discussion regarding Civil rights whatever they might be should not be held under religious law no matter how logical it might sound.
There are many reasons why we should not involve religion and law in the same mix and call it the truth.
Civil rights are the issue here and following the belief that everyone deserves the same rights in America. Gay people demanding the same rights for better or worse, Gay people do not ask for more rights they are simply saying look, you might not approve of my choice in life but since it was my choice to do ,all I am asking is for you to understand my legal rights and grant me what I am rightfully deserve, period!
Melanie please ignore the ignorance and keep on doing what you do best, fight for what is right!!
Go Mel!
No, you are wrong. The push is to “normalise gay lifestyle” , force religious organisations to recognise this lifestyle as acceptable and fund abortions with public money and force health care workers to participate in it , force Christians to accept it in the education system and in health care reforms etc. Christians who object to laws made in these areas feel threaten that they may lose protection by the law. That is NOT religious freedom in the law or Civil rights. Get it?
Dorit,
Thank you for sorting this out for those who don’t know the difference or would prefer not to accept that civil law has absolutely nothing to do with someone’s belief. Belief is just that. Belief! Not fact!
By now we have all heard about the Manhattan Declaration put out by various religious right figures and groups urging, among other things, non-cooperation with laws that in any way recognize same sex couples.
It has been condemned in many circles and for good reason.
Wayne Besen of Truthwinsout.org said the following:
“This is a disturbing call for anarchy from a group of radical clerics and activists who believe they don’t have play by the same rules as other taxpaying Americans.”
And according to the blog Instaputz, there is another reason to not only oppose this document but also raise the alarm about it.
Some of the names those signing the declaration aren’t a surprise. They are the usual folks who oppose lgbt equality – Tony Perkins, James Dobson, Maggie Gallagher, Gary Bauer, etc.
I don’t see how you are a responsible reporter. You accuse good religious people of inciting hatred! And call them ‘radical’. Why? Do you know them? Do you truly understand the declaration?I don’t think so! Sorry you are full of hatred and have projected your hatred onto Christians to excuse your sinful lifestyle. God NEVER condoned same sex unions! Not in the Torah or anywhere. Nor did He condone killing innocent unborn children. The declaration is NOT about hatred, it’s about humanity, the right to life and the protection of TRUE marriage, as established by GOD. You are a Jew and know that Marriage is a scared covenant between MAN & WOMAN in the sight of GOD. How sad you have come so far from your roots!
Jules, Let me mention something that give me a unique position and power. I am NOT a reporter. For the purposes of this topic and others of similar nature….. I am an activist first and a blogger second! B LO G G E R! BLOGGER… In fact if you want to see more please feel free to keep visiting
Don’t be too concerned about “Jules” Mel and others. If not for his bigoted post about this story on the Australian extremist anti-GLBT “catholic” website “Cathpews” I wouldn’t have got to read it.
Thanks Jules.
Nice to meet you and thanks for the info re Cathpews. Jules really needs to learn the difference between Secular and religious. It amazes me how people like him will use the rights they have and then use religion to take those rights away from others who deserve equality.
Rich, I went to that site. It’s not anti gay or anything as you suggest. If anything they are Catholics getting on with their own business. They have right of free speech too ,you know!
Rich, I went to that site. There is no anti gay hate posts there. So what the hell are you accusing Jules of?
Rich, I went to that site and there is no anti gay extremist there, so what the hell are you on about man?
To its credit, as much as Jules is free to use his catholicism to justify his offensive homophobia on this website, you permit him to post.
By contrast the administrator of the cathpews site (http://members7.boardhost.com/CathPews/index.html) would either immediately delete – or even worse, edit to subvert the intent of – any post on Cathpews that was even remotely critical of Catholicism or supportive of GLBT people.
There is a hole in your bucket dear Henry, dear Henry – sorry couldn’t resist… Thanks Rich. I have not had time yet to check out the site. The reason why I am happy to allow these comments is because we can expose the bigotry and hate in America. If someone says “I dont give a rats tuch about you gays..” it helps wake America up. Because he really should care. If he were a good patriotic American who believed in the principles our soldiers die for, he would care. One of those principles is civil rights and equality. So indeed Henry and Jules I thank you for exposing yourself here on our website and please you are most welcome to come back anytime. After all – This IS AMERICA…
One swallow doesn’t make a spring. One visit to a blogsite doesn’t allow for an accurate judgement about its history. I have been monitoring cathpews for a number of years. I never said that there were “hate” posts on the site. I said the site was “extremist”, an assessment that has found concurrence with their more middle-of-the-road coreligionists. I also said it was “anti-GLBT”: it took just a moment to find a posting typical of this, posted as recently as today, favourably quoting the cardinal archbishop of Sydney, George Pell. Pell is discussing the Victorian Charter of Rights and Responsibilities (Victoria is an Australian state). Pell says that in the Charter “the right to freedom from discrimination on the grounds of sex is parodied by being associated with ambiguous categories such as ’sexual orientation’, and fantasies of the zeitgeist such as ‘gender identity’.” If describing “sexual orientation” as an “ambiguous category” and “gender identity” as “a fantasy of the zeitgeist” is not at the very least anti-GLBT – to me it is appraching out and out gay-hate – what is?
PS I forgot: Pell’s implication that protection from discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation is a “parody” of protection from discrimination on the grounds of sex. Another example of the sort of anti-GLBT sentiment that CathPewers love.
The Administration Team of Cath Pews would like to correct the false satements of RichJ.
In the guidelines of our blog prohibit “Unkind comments about a poster’s private life, his/her sexuality, his/her health – spiritual, physical and mental”. Such posts are not be tolerated nor has there ever been a discriminatory post denigrating a poster or people because of their sexuality..
At some point people the world over will realize that people who are homosexual or lesbian, are just that “people” and no one will care about their sexual orientation because it is irrelevant. Such “people” will simply do what straight people will do–get married, have families, practice the religion of their choice and worry about more important issues like a billion children around the globe who live in poverty.
The writers and signers of the Manhattan Declaration on American Freedom are angry at the way Jesus answered their prayers for a republican president and congress
Henry, it is terribly sad when you tout your belief as “the truth.” I mean come on, get real. The Truth is different to so many. Why then do you not stop Jewish people from marrying and procreating? I am jew and I do not believe you have the ” truth”. In fact I am still waiting for the Messiah. I do not need jesus for anything. I connect directly to G-d in my spirituallity. I know when I die I will be perfectly fine because I am a good and kind person weho has devoted my entire life to helping people who are suffering. Unequal treatment on earth causes suffering of the worst kind. How does having a different belief derogate in any way shape of form from my right to marry the person I love under civil law. You make no sense at all. I dont care how you care for whom. Its not relevant. The bottom line is stay out of my life and my death. Let me face my music my way – I dont need you for your beliefs because it has nothing to do with my life. The only thing you can do is keep your religious fervor to yourself and stop thinking that you can impact civil rights. If people like you had your way then a balck and white person will never marry – it was the same thinking that caused Africsan American people to have inequality in this country. So please just keep away from my civil business and go to church and pary for whomsoever’s soul you please, while I fight for the equality of the oppressed in thia country. Go practice your religious freedom in the place you are menat to do it – IN CHURCH – not in my bedroom and nor in Congress. My religious freedom entitles me not to hear your propoganda and ettempts to convert me – because you are then infringing on my rights. So in simply tterms stay away…from me… you are toxic… best to you and happy thanksgiving a day og gratitude, melanie author of the bLOG
most English translations of the Bible use the word homosexual as a mistranslation of yadha (paedophile) and qadesh (male temple prostitute). Of course, the word homosexual was not available to be used when the Bible was written, and there was no true equivalent Greek word[1]. This might help you overcome some of the negative behaviour associations of gay people.
Any attempt at persuasion by a church who has killed to convert is in my opinion spewing hate. Do not tell my children they are going to hell when you kill and fester hate, Mr. Pope, in the name of your Church. Your Church needs to atone and that has yet to be done. Instead you continue to condone hate and abuse in the name of God.
There’s got to be a place where the Word of God can be preached and that is where people of God meets. Don’t expect to be accepted as you are, while trying to change tradition, believes, and laws because of your fisical passions. Burger king and Macdonalds they both serve fries, and they compete agaisnt each other so people of diferent tastes can have their on way. Church is not inteded to please evrybody’s desire, but instead to call on every one to repentance from sin, not just inmoral sin, but from all sin. If someone does not want to repent that’s his decision. If you want build another Sodoma and Gomorra that’s fine, you will find many. many, Lots, but you will not have any Abrahams, we will be interceeding for the city, to save the Lots, but we will not run into the city to be burned with it. May God have mercy on you.
israel…. Did you know the main characters in myths are usually gods… who often endorsed the actions of earthly rulers, priests and other figures?
One of the foremost functions of myth is to establish models for behavior. The figures described in myth are sacred and are therefore worthy role models for human beings. Thus, myths often function to uphold current rulers, social structures and institutions: they justify these customs by claiming that they were established by sacred beings.
According to anthropologist James Frazer, man begins with an unfounded belief in impersonal magical laws. When he realizes that his applications of these laws don’t work, he gives up his belief in natural law, in favor of a belief in personal gods controlling nature — thus giving rise to religious myths. Meanwhile, man continues practicing formerly magical rituals through force of habit, reinterpreting them as reenactments of mythical events. Finally, Frazer contends, man realizes that nature does follow natural laws, but now he discovers their true nature through science. Here, again, science makes myth obsolete: as Frazer puts it, man progresses “from magic through religion to science”
Not that I even think you will get the point why I am telling you this tidbit israel
It is your religion that is nothing but a myth…. as have all religions since time began… your’s is nothing special and will eventually go the way of Zeus and Issis…
With our advances in equality and as we come closer to our goal of equality, the rhetoric from right-wing extremists like yourself is becoming more desperate. Most thoughtful Americans are increasingly seeing your irrational and hate-filled arguments as raw bigotry. It is no longer acceptable to demonize or denigrate the gay community and attempts to do so make the offenders look mean and ignorant.
I have not been in one of your churches in a very long time, because I too have children and don’t plan to blindly offer them up for molestation by your church leaders… as has so much in the past been the case
Jules are we talking about that God in the Old Testament that thought is was OK for Joshua to kill everyone who was not a Hebrew?
My experience with your type is you will read into that Bible anything that suits you…
Jules
Posted on November 22, 2009 at 6:27 am
Who are you to question God’s actions? And are you a biblical scholar? Your literal interpretation is pretty fundamental . Fundamentalist like you confuse objective interpretation with personal belief. You interpret Scripture in light of your own beliefs rather than those of the author’s. And what the authors say is the unquestionable authority of God.
And my experience with your type is you haven’t read authoritative interpretations let alone real church documents. You just read gossip columnist like this one.
Like I said up the thread… I have a Phd… in Classic studies… and Biblical History… I have read the churches document… in their original languages and what I have noticed is every time they get translated… they changed to suit the translators contemporary view of the world.
It’s a well known fact that married men are the largest group of paedophiles. Those men who molest children stopped practising their faith the moment they laid a hand on them. You seem to think that you can blame a whole church and it’s teachings on the imperfections of individuals . How odd you are Miss self righteous!
Sad you haven’t learned anything though!
I too studied biblical Studies as a sub major with my law degree. I did a mini thesis called Jesus and the Torah. What was so profound from the research (btw many Church documents too jules) was the interperative implications.
What I blame the church for… is its systematic and institutionalize cover up of these crimes against children and I do it as a victim of these crimes.
I was the victim of your church… so again it would appear we are on a subject I know far more about.
Shows what the teaching turned them into? Is that what you are suggesting. Molestation by priests and parents produces a cycle of pedophiles. You are not making a good case here Jules.
I have learned a lot… I have learned there are religous fanatics out there… like you… who can’t not be swayed by rational argument… and only the forceful application of well deserved public scorn will get them to keep their hate to themselves…
Jeff, the Bible says a lot of things… like its not alright to eat shell fish, that adulterers should be stoned to death, that women are the properties of their husbands and it is ok to sell your daughters into slavery, just to name a few things it says.
Now the Catholic Church says it is against the death penalty… yet the death penalty is pretty well called out for in the Bible…
Everyone has a different interpretation of the Bible you thump so hard.. but which is right and which is not?
But The Manhattan Declaration is just a bunch of bigots who want to use religion to justify being such.
Yeah Sean I got the cut and paste letter from 2 Republican Reps yesterday about “those evil people in public housing” stealing everyones money… were transparent racism IMHO… like most of you comment was… and IMHO those Rep letters a waste my tax dollars
Where did Christ say stone an adulterer? Paula your literal interpretations are fundamentalist!! AND who are you to tell Christians what they should believe? Our faith has been here for 2000 years!!Again lies and bigotry towards Christians.
Wa Wa Wa… poor little Christin is being picked on… lies and bigotry well you ought to know you belong to a faith that has cornered the market on them…
who are you to tell everyone else what to believe in… and you show me where Christ said that gays are immoral… but you can not ,.. because he did not…
You want to cut yourself out of the world because you cant handle everyone being equal to your bigoted ass… fine… trust me the world will be a better place without you and your kind.. AND NO ONE WILL MISS YOU
Your faith is nothing more then just one more myth for the weak minded… and it with go the way as the the other myths did…
Christ upheld the dignity of true marriage when he spoke about divorce and how God intended it to be between man and woman as it was in the beginning.
Paula , you show a great deal of hatred in this post of yours.
Actually Paula is showing her well earned anger. There is a difference. Its fine for you to talk while you have all your American Civil rights in tact. Why does government make secular law for marriage. Why is your marriage not governed by the Church? WHy did you get a vcivil icense to marry? Where does the marriage certificate go? The Secretary of State? Why do you go to the US courts when you want custody of your child? Because it is the SECULAR law that provides for your marriage. Not the friggin Church. Now If a Priest chooses to marry you fine, great, enjoy. Now gays and lesbians happen to be in relatinship in couples whether you like it or not. Just by virtue of their coupling, the committment to spend their life together should entitle them to the same civil laws that you are entitled to when you couple with your intended forever person!!! You Go Paula and thanks for all the turth your present on this site and for keeping these crazy one dimensional fundementalists in check.
Also let me say this – all who commented here that are anti-gay took the bait and came onto our lesbian site to engage in conversation with us and while doing that they showed their ignorance, their brainwashed excuses for souls and the fact that in their feeble attempt at civil disobedience – ie those 4700 pages of furtive hate they have and shall accomplish nought. You know why? Because one cannot be disobedeient of laws that do not apply to you. They will not be compelled to marry gay people – tere will be no such law; they will not be compelled to do abortions. So in truth their manifesto is a childish attempt at ‘mein kampf’ and nothing more.
How odd, I have a true marriage. All components complied with – two people, two children – (insemination and adoption from overseas orphanage) love, committment, Rabbi married us, State gave us a license, 200 guests at weeding, California State license. We own a home, we have a mortgage, we are on the PTA, have great jobs and own a business, pray to G-d, mmmm what else do we need for a true marriage Henry, Dear Henry? Oh yes we are two women. How does my marriage impact other marriages Henry? Does it prevent them for happening. Does it make deadbeat fathers even more deadbeat than they already are? Will it alter the divorce numbers? Will my marriage increase the amount of annulments that the Catholic Archdiosece grants? Do you think all celebrties will run to Vegas and get divorced after a one night marriage. How about the show the bachelor – where you get to pick a spouse, Do you think more or less people will want to do that one. I could go on forever but ,,,
Sorry to say but your post shows that you are not clear as to WHY the Declaration was written in the first place. It was written so as to protect the true meaning of marriage. Frankly I don’t give a rat’s toenail for what gays do, just don’t go forcing a rewriting of definitions and ancient meanings of words.
There is a hole in your bucket dear Henry, dear Henry – sorry couldn’t resist… Thanks Rich. I have not had time yet to check out the site. The reason why I am happy to allow these comments is because we can expose the bigotry and hate in America. If someone says “I dont give a rats tuch about you gays..” it helps wake America up. Because he really should care. If he were a good patriotic American who believed in the principles our soldiers die for, he would care. One of those principles is civil rights and equality. So indeed Henry and Jules I thank you for exposing yourself here on our website and please you are most welcome to come back anytime. After all – This IS AMERICA…
By the way the Catholic Church is connected to one humanbeing in one place in the world. We all know who that is. They have a supreme human being. So anything said or done in the Name of tghe Church anywhere in the world is attributable to the leadership of that PERSON. That person’s influence on modern life (not biblical life) is huge and he is calling on churches around the world to do exactly what the Manhatten Declaration does and exactlly what the Australians site CATHPEW espouses and here is an example from that site: When they inetrfere woith politicians and try and influence educatyion no matter where in the world, it is HATE jargon . Well how can I say that, because – they are trying to influence sexcular law not to recognize LGBT equality, human rights, civil rights, under the law….. quote for cathpewk:- PRESS RELEASE PUBLISHED:
Media Release
Catholic Communications
Archdiocese of Canberra and Goulburn
GPO Box 3089 Canberra ACT 2601
16 November, 2009.
The ACT Government is trying once more to impose upon the community same-sex civil unions which
include ceremony and celebrant. It is anomalous that such legislation which will have impact upon the national agenda should be passed in a small and unusual jurisdiction which has no house of review.
It is vital for the life of the nation that marriage be supported and promoted in every way possible at a time when it is under severe pressure. To establish a form of civil union which mimics marriage adds inevitably
to that pressure, since it reduces marriage between a man and a woman to one of a number of equally valid options.
The marriage ceremony is more than a formal recognition of a relationship between two people. It is a formal recognition that this particular relationship between a man and a woman is uniquely important to society as a whole, in large part because it can produce children and provide the best environment in which they can grow to maturity. Other relationships, however important and enriching they may be, do not make the same contribution to society and, therefore, do not warrant the same kind of formal recognition.
It is wrong to deny justice to homosexual people. But justice concerns rights and duties; and in this case we are not talking of the right of some to which there corresponds a duty for all. We are talking of a desire –
something which some may want but to which they are not necessarily entitled. In this case, the kind of civil union desired by some undermines the common good, which is served only where marriage between a man and woman is identified and supported as unique and uniquely important for society.
For a government to confuse desires and rights is bound to lead to bad law; the same is true when a government focuses upon the individual at the expense of the community as a whole.
In the last electoral campaign, the Prime Minister made a clear commitment to prevent marriage being undermined in this way, and until now he has shown admirable resolve in holding to that commitment.
Now is the time for Mr Rudd and his Government once more to act in the interests of the Australian community as a whole by overturning the ACT legislation and supporting marriage as they have done before.
+ Mark Coleridge
Archbishop of Canberra and Goulburn
http://www.cathnews.com/uploads/doc/2009/11/Archbishop%20Mark%20Coleridge%20-%20Same%20Sex%20Unions%20Legislation.pdf
Inquiries to telephone 6201 9811.
I care for gay people in a different way to you. I care that they should know the truth, not be told it’s OK to go against nature or even God. God gave us our sexuality at birth. We need to accept it as part of God’s plan for us. Trust in God is important to me and gives me courage. Turning away from Him only makes my life miserable. I accept my sexuality , live with it and thank God for it. AND the last thing we should do is coerce others to accept something unnatural.
Thank You for the clarification…
Perhaps Rich J. just mis-read your guidelines… or then again perhaps Rich J. thought he had posted within your guidelines and still had his comment removed…. and was simply very annoyed at you… in either case I now encourage readers of LGR head over to Cath-Pews, share their views and and join the discussion that is going on about this topic there as well.
Oh and BTW Cath Pews admin…. we have some very good website designers in the LGBT community who I am sure would be happy to improve the look of your site… for a price of course, because it really needs some work.