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Are Christian Anti-Gay Group/s Aiding & Abetting Lisa Miller’s Defiance of Court Order?

Debbie Thurman

Debbie Thurman

 Posted by Melanie Nathan, 11.05 p.pm PST  1/1/10

  Lisa Miller, ‘ex-lesbian,’ has fled from her legal obligation to hand her daughter over to the custodial parent Janet Jenkins. She has disappeared with the child and all the while egged on by a very righteous bunch of  Christians who deem their interpretation of the Bible superior to civil law of the United States of America.  See my colleague,  Bridgette P. LaVictoire, Ex-Lesbian” Lisa Miller Fails To Hand Over Custody of Isabella To Janet Jenkins Written on 1 Jan, 2010 at 16:05 

Ex-gay proponent,  disguised as mental health expert, Debbie Thurman, creator of a support group, today cheered the disappearance of Miller sometime earlier this Thurman’s blog called this apparent kidnapping an example of “true motherhood”:

Thurman’s BLOG clearly sought to aid and abet the criminal act of Lisa Miller, spurring her along with prayer () and G-d knows what else,  and now guess what like Miller Thurman’s BLOG has done its own disappearing Act, clear evidence of her assistance and encouragement of the sacrificial lamb Miller,  to commit a crime.

I kept a copy of her website BLOG because I knew that when today came if Miller would fail to hand over the child as ordered by a Vermont Judge, Cohen, , Thurman would be compelled to take her BLOG, evidence of her crime, down.  SO if the FEDS want me as a witness I am ready willing and able. There are hundreds of LGBT bloggers out there who have been reporting on this for some time. I am sure they too would be willing to provide any evidence that the Blogosphere may have produced.

It is about time that religions interference and stepping on civil law is exposed for what it is.  The LGBT community is ready to be active when the civil law discriminates and now we are ready to be good citizens to urge the upholding of the civil law when it is broken; and to add insult to injury broken in the name of Jesus.  

The Christian right has no authority to circumvent the  law of this country.  This is the perfect example of the danger in failing to honor the boundary between Church and State. This failure to separate the two and invoke the Bible in place of the law of the land would serve to give us license to stone adulterers, and you all know the rest of what the bible has to say.

This is what Debbie  Thurman’s now missing Post says about now missing Miller :

“Were I in Lisa’s shoes, I could only hope to have the faith and courage she has displayed for the past six years. …

Lisa obeyed God in seeking to raise Isabella in the Christian faith. Isabella learned Scripture, apologetics and the art of prayer at her mother’s knee and in church, to the extent that she found her Christian school Bible classes boring and “childish.” This is an intelligent, precocious 7-year-old, who knows her mind and can speak it. She would have given Janet Jenkins nightmares had she consented to live under the same roof.

I cannot answer the burning question on everyone’s lips: Where are Lisa and Isabella? Somewhere safe, I pray. How and when did they get there? Only God knows. ..

What happens now? A lot of frustration, recrimination and more lies on one side and a collective sigh of relief on the other. The courts still have a huge task set before them, meanwhile. Lisa and Isabella represent only one of many similar cases waiting to be resolved. We need precedents that honor the prevailing states’ rights, laws and constitutions. The majority of Americans overwhelmingly support traditional marriage. If the tyrannical minority wants to push against that, it can and will be met with civil disobedience. There is no other way.

Lisa Miller is a mother who would give up her life to save her child. Of that there is no doubt. She apparently has chosen to forfeit a large measure of her liberty, personal property and pursuit of happiness in assuring that child her God-ordained future, much as a group of patriots pledged their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor more than two centuries ago to establish this nation.

I say God bless and long live Lisa and Isabella Miller. All who have known them are the better for it.

Thurman’s statement seems to confirm allegations that Miller is being used by Thurman and Christian Rightists at the Liberty Counsel as a test case for their Manhattan Declaration, which is a vow to violate any law that fundamentalists happen to disagree with.

MMM, what do you all think?  So go to her BLOG site http://theformers.wordpress.com/2009/12/30/this-is-true-motherhood/

and you will see nada gone bye bye!

And  then there is this guy who ought to be subpoenaed too.

“ I pray,” says  Drew Taggart  “people ‘along the way’ are brave enough and smart enough to render the necessary assistance to Lisa and Isabella so this girl can be raised in a healthy environment. I just hope Lisa did her homework and did this disappearing act properly.”

In a subsequent defense of this statement, Taggart says:

I doubt she’ll ever see a day of jail. Once word of this gets out, millions of people are going to be outraged. And there are plenty of local and a few state law enforcement agencies around the country, who will not waste a minute trying to find her. William Cohen is a leftwing hack and this ruling is a joke. Without the support of law enforcement, especially wherever Lisa opts to call her new home, this ruling is going nowhere.

So back to my having copied the  now barren BLOG as a keepsake, I find the comments  here revealed to show  this Mr. Taggert that sentiment is not always anti-gay but that we have a way of being on the side of what is fair and correct  and average Americans have no problem seeing the danger in what you preach.

Comments from Thurmans now missing BLOG:-

” Surely there are similar precedents to draw upon involving hetro couples. Namely, situations where the mother’s male partner/husband is not the biological father, and has not adopted the child, but at some point had a supportive relationship to the child as a stepfather.

    Comment by Priya Lynn — December 30, 2009 @ 2:32 pm

I can think of anecdotal cases involving people I’ve known (in which case the former stepfather has no rights), but I’m not a legal scholar so I’d appreciate any info on the matter. Anyone?

Comment by Brad — December 30, 2009 @ 12:02 pm

If a warrant is issued for her arrest, anyone providing her with assistance would be aiding a fugitive. Somehow I doubt Debbie Thurman wants to do state or federal time. Since the State of Virginia is now supporting the Vermont Court as they are required, I would guess that Miller would flee south (perhaps even to Mexico). If anyone helps Miller flee Virginia, they are looking at federal penalties. Judges hold a dim view of those who flout court rulings. I wouldn’t expect much leniency in sentencing.

Comment by John — December 30, 2009 @ 1:12 pm

Unbelievably someone on the page made sense in pointing out that Miller hasn’t put herself in a good position and being on the run actually hurts Isabella.

Comment by a. mcewen — December 30, 2009 @ 1:15 pm

So much for Thurman’s lame excuse that she didn’t give Miller any legal advice. Always knew you were a BS’er Debbie, thanks for coming out of the closet and admitting it.

Comment by Priya Lynn — December 30, 2009 @ 1:29 pm

If Miller does not comply with the law and wants to play martyr – I say fine. She can send a few years handcuffed and locked in the can to think about the sin of kidnapping.

What Miller is doing is not holy. She is a poor role model who is mentally abusing her child. There will likely be massive shrink bills in the future for Isabella, thanks to Miller.

Her lawlessness is not to be compared to our nation’s founders. It is criminal behavior, profoundly irresponsible and deeply immoral. It disgusts me that these frauds are cynically co-opting American symbols in their politically based criminality.

It is a shame that Miller allowed herself to be used as a pawn in the Culture War Syndicate. I doubt her friends will visit her much in the hoosegow once she is no longer useful to their political games.

Comment by Wayne Besen — December 30, 2009 @ 1:52 pm

“So much for Thurman’s lame excuse that she didn’t give Miller any legal advice. Always knew you were a BS’er Debbie, thanks for coming out of the closet and admitting it.”

   And you are deducing this how, exactly?

Comment by Debbie Thurman — December 30, 2009 @ 2:24 pm

    You really are a piece of work Debbie. You just admitted the truth in your own blog, praising miller for the kidnapping, calling it “true motherhood”. Now of course in your Christian world where black is white and bad is good, you’ll have some pathetic excuse for how your actions are really the opposite of what you’ve done, but we’re not stupid and we’re not buying any of your BS. ” 

Comment by Priya Lynn — December 30, 2009 @ 2:32 pm

THURMANS WEBSITE  is located at http://debbiethurman.com/dt_files/aboutdebbie.php 

Last but not least important, I am urging the FEDS to investigate the Liberty Council, Debbie Thurman, Taggart, et al to see just how Ms Miller has financed her escape… Check the Banks and there is likely to be a trail and who knows that trail might lead to Isabella.

At the same time I urge Ms Miller to turn the child in, the damage is done and your only chance of leniency is that once you have done so you may be reprieved.  I urge also the Christian Ministries involved or not involved to encourage Ms. Miller to subvert the Manhatten Declaration and to obey the Civil Law especially those of you who may be implicated in this.  If you do turn yourself in pronto,  you may find a willing Judge let go of having you do time.  That would be a lot better for Isabella.    A good mediator may then help you with some supervised visitation, once Janet decides she is comfortable with such.  Or do you prefer Jail visits for Isabella?

melaaa2Blogged by Melanie Nathan: nathan@privatecourts.com
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74 Responses to Are Christian Anti-Gay Group/s Aiding & Abetting Lisa Miller’s Defiance of Court Order?

  1. Samphire

    January 24, 2010 at 1:56 am

    I appreciate the comment about Christians not being allowed to circumvent the law of the land.
    We have terrible problems here in South Korea with people trying to circumvent the law against adultery. And I hear that gays and lesbians are flouting the civil laws passed against them in every muslim country. They are having same-sex affairs in flagrant breach of the law.
    You are Soooo right to criticize the religious right for trying to circumvent the law. We should crack down hard on law-breakers everywhere.

  2. Desiree

    January 13, 2010 at 1:18 pm

    I keep hearing “There is no such thing as ex-gay, just denial” Oh? But ex-straight is perfectly OK? DO people know that Lisa was married to a man first? But only one switcharoo is the autentic one? There is a double standard here. How do we know she wasn’t just in denial when she was a lesbian for a few years. Maybe she hated her ex so bad she swore off men for a time. And out of the 2 partners in the lesbian relationship, LISA was the one who wanted to have the traditional stay-at-home mom lifestyle, and carry the child in her womb. Oh wait but what you want to do with your womb isn’t a part of sexuality and femininity any more, not another indicator of a history of straight tendencies. Once married a man, has a history of straight relationships, Wanted to bear a child from her own body, wanted to stay at home and raise her child, doesn’t want a wife anymore. Yeah real gay. And her ex-gayness was the denial? Not the ex-straightness? C’mon it was a fraction of her 40 years.

    • Sei

      January 13, 2010 at 10:23 pm

      Desiree,

      Lisa Miller, in all of the information that has been released, has never dated a guy, let along was married before her relationship with Jenkins. Please give a citation as searches regarding this do not show anything. In fact, since leaving Jenkins, Miller has not had any relationships with anyone male or female that anyone can find or has reported. Even IF- and I do mean IF- you have proof that Lisa Miller went back and forth- that is bisexuality incidentally- it changes absolutely nothing regarding this case.

  3. eric

    January 12, 2010 at 2:59 pm

    All the “gays” who want the rule of law should stop protesting Prop 8. It was ratified by law, so why try to change it? I’m assuming because you lost. But that never seems to be good enough for the advancement of your “movement”.

    So ask for law here, then go out and try to change laws you don’t like. Seems to be the norm

    • Melanie Nathan

      January 12, 2010 at 4:50 pm

      Great Eric, you finally asked a question even though its one that reflects just how much you still need to learn about the Us and matters of rights and our constitution. Its my privelege to have this opportunity Let me tell you why we need to change it and why it will change: 1. The Court First held that Gay people had a constitutional right to marry and that it is a basic fundemental right.
      2. Then Came prop 8 which was funded by churches. . The lying ads solicited people to vote for prop 8 to take away that right to marry. 3. We are fighting to get our right back. So the change was made by the PROP 8 – they unconstitutionally – took away our rights that were fundemental and inherent.
      The very purpose of the Judicial system and its separation from state legislation is to perform a checks and balance. So two couples who want to get married have gone to court to ask for their rights BACK. I hope you can conceptualize this and wrap your brain around it. However in order to do so I suggest you try and free your mind from preconceived ideas and your homophobia. Please come back and let me know how you have managed to deal with this reality. I hope it is not making you too afraid. Please follow the Prop 8 trial and let us know if you have heard anything that may be of value to you. By the way this is not the best place to post regarding prop 8. It is off topic here. But feel free to go to the Prop 8 specific content on lezgetreal.com

  4. susiejock

    January 5, 2010 at 10:50 pm

    If Jenkins loves this girl so much, why doesn’t she move to Virginia and accept

    supervised visits, which are what Miller wanted all along?

    • Sei

      January 5, 2010 at 10:54 pm

      Susiejock-

      No, Lisa Miller did NOT want visitation at all. Period. End of sentence. It was only after it became clear that she was losing the battle she came up with this idea of telling people she was willing to accept supervised visits. Why not ask why Lisa Miller not move back to Vermont? Oh, that is right, because so many of you supporting Ms Miller want it to sound so innocuous and innocent and wonderful, but really, you just don’t want Miller to move back here where she might lose the influence of those who keep telling her that she’s no longer lesbian.

    • Melanie Nathan

      January 5, 2010 at 11:07 pm

      Also if Janet would have moved, she would have lost the ability to use the VT court for Jursidiction. Do you want to be a lesbian in VA or VT? Begging for your parental rights????

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  11. Amy

    January 3, 2010 at 12:56 am

    Ok, I found an answer to the adoption question – apparently Jenkins maintains it was never discussed (which leads me to believe it is legally permissible in Vermont http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/30/AR2007013001316_5.html?sid=ST2010010101465). This is obviously a problem – even if they had stayed together and Lisa had died, Jenkins would not have been considered next of kin for custodial purposes.

    Having said that, Lisa Miller is on crack if she thinks anybody buys her theory that Isabella and Jenkins “had a deep friendship” instead of a mother-daughter bond. I have some great friends, but I wouldn’t let them pay for my fertility treatments, pay me child support or GIVE MY CHILD THEIR LAST NAME.

    • Sei

      January 3, 2010 at 8:24 am

      Janet Jenkins was named Isabella’s mother by virtue of the civil union. Thus, this does not matter if adoption happened or not. This is Vermont’s law not Virginia’s.

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  18. Bill

    January 2, 2010 at 12:35 pm

    Sadly, yet as usual, this really has nothing to do with ‘protecting the children’ at all, does it? This is about delusional ‘Christians’ and their warped sense of the world around them. It is as if they do not realize that they are the very evil that they fear so much. I’d actually feel rather sorry for them, if they weren’t hell-bent on destroying any chance of a peaceful world. And as usual, it is the children who will pay the price for the sins of their ‘Christain’ parents.

  19. Steve Leong

    January 2, 2010 at 12:28 pm

    I pray from the bottom of my heart that this woman becomes enlightened as the person God created her to be. God created Gay people for God’s reason. Perhaps to curb the world’s overpopulation, perhaps to find loving parents for children abandoned by straights. We need to trust in God’s program. Those who are discriminating, judgemental, “better than thou” , “wanna make Gays straight” advocates will eventually REAP WHAT THEY SOW. I PRAY that they will be enlightened and realize why they are reaping what they do. I urge all Gay people to join me in prayer. We are born Gay, which puts the power of God behind us! We stand by the TRUTH, that we are born Gay…from all others, it is purely JUDGEMENT! Why can’t we all, both Gay and Straight work together to help the world’s real problems!
    Steve Leong

    • Melanie Nathan

      January 2, 2010 at 1:46 pm

      Well said Steve. As you can see from my piece where I ask Lisa to surrender, I too believe in reconciliation and healing – So my prayers are going to both parents and the child.

    • Julie

      January 2, 2010 at 3:29 pm

      Steve, would you accept an old, straight Catholic woman in your prayer group??

      You see, I believe in God. I believe in “Love thy neighbor” and that Jesus wanted us to love the people everyone else in his society “didn’t like”…. I mean, thats who he hung out with and accepted. God didn’t want us to cast out and treat badly those that he made “different” from the majority. He wanted us to love and respect ALL his children! Apparently most Christians have forgotten that. Just as it says in Revelations, Satan has come with a sweet tongue to deceive the masses and turn them into his own army – His general’s in this have proven to be the likes of Jerry Falwell and Oral Roberts. Just like predicted, they are so blinded they can not see the EVIL they are doing, so filled with arrogance and the belief that they are the “chosen ones”. God and Satan will eventually clue them in… but it will be too late for them. So stupid are they that they will be surprised when they find they have been actively working for Satan all along. I pray they actually READ the bible they are thumping before its too late!

  20. Andrea

    January 2, 2010 at 12:16 pm

    I don’t any admission of assistance there. I doubt it would prompt an investigation just because she hopes that Miller is successful and speculates about where she might be.

    • Melanie Nathan

      January 2, 2010 at 1:44 pm

      If I were the feds I would look into the financial circumstances of Miller and see where it leads. Is she independantly wealthy – obviously not working….. who is financing her run,

    • Andrea

      January 2, 2010 at 2:08 pm

      I doubt there’s going to be a money trail there, not that I know. My guess is that she’s in another country by now or living with some off the grid supporter and won’t surface until the girl is 18 or close to it. I support gay marriage and adoption but I think it would be completely unfair to this girl to send her to live with a stranger, which Jenkins is. Too much trauma. Jenkins ought to bow out of this case for the sake of the child or Miller should come back and allow visitation because life as a fugitive will hurt this child too, but I strongly hope this ruling is overturned. Isabella belongs with Miller.

    • Sei

      January 2, 2010 at 2:19 pm

      Andrea,

      The moment that occurs, then Miller sets a standard which is unacceptable for any and all parents. Jenkins is not a total stranger in this case as she has had some contact with Isabella, just not in a while. Judge Cohen ruled that the trauma involved in the change outweighed the long term problems of her being denied access to both parents.

    • Melanie Nathan

      January 5, 2010 at 2:35 am

      exactly

    • a. mcewen

      January 2, 2010 at 4:22 pm

      Sorry Andrea but Miller’s actions sends a bad message regarding the laws of this country and especially Christianity. This entire thing got worse because she wouldn’t abide by court orders and allow Jenkins to see their daughter. She shouldn’t be rewarded for that.

    • Andrea

      January 2, 2010 at 7:35 pm

      Ruining the kid’s life for the sake of legal precedent seems very unfair. She doesn’t know or love Jenkins, much less view her as her mother.

    • Sei

      January 2, 2010 at 8:24 pm

      Andrea,

      Judge Cohen already took this into consideration. He has made his decision. It is unfair for Isabella to be denied access to her mother, and it is illegal for Lisa Miller to abduct her. You may not agree, but this is the law.

    • Julie

      January 2, 2010 at 10:11 pm

      Andrea, that is the exact same argument that Sean Goldman’s “family” in Brazil made. “But he doesn’t know his parent! He’s been here for 5 years, he’s happy here! Its going to upset him to move him from the kidnappers family! He’s bonded to us, not his parent!” So when a child has been kidnapped for a certain period of time, the kidnapper should just be allowed to keep the kid? Or worse, if your child/sibling/cousin was kidnapped as a child and found 5 years later, they should be left with the kidnapper? THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.
      All the parents of Kidnapped children would CERTAINLY disagree with you!!!!!!

    • Amy

      January 3, 2010 at 12:33 am

      In response to Julia – your comparison of this case to Sean Goldman’s situation is flawed because the family in Brazil was no longer legal or biological next-of-kin after Sean’s mother passed away. Miller is the biological and legal parent of this child. Custody law in this country is incredibly flawed and needs to be modified to deal with current day reproductive and social considerations.

      While it seems incredibly obvious that Isabella’s conception was planned jointly by Miller and Jenkins with the intention to co-parent, I do not believe it is in the child’s interest to remove her from the custody of the only mother she knows (however I fully support Jenkins’ right to visitation with the child). I read that Jenkins did not try to adopt Isabella, my question is – would she have been allowed to? Does anyone know if Vermont law allows this? This whole case is incredibly sad and I hope the resolution brings as much peace as possible to all parties involved (not likely, I know). I do respect Lisa Miller’s right to change her lifestyle and sexual orientation as she sees fit – but you can’t just remove another parent’s rights to a child.

    • Tammy

      January 3, 2010 at 1:13 am

      To Amy
      You heard right. Janet never wanted to adopt Isabella and it is customary for lesbians to adopt the non-biological child. It was not because their relationship was great and Janet thought it would last forever either because it was not very good, way before Isabella was conceived. The judge ruled Janet a parent, unconstitutional, and that is the only way she became a parent. Janet was never consistent with her visits before all this happened and nor did she send gifts, cards or telephone, even though she had the right to. I also know that when janet taunted Isabella on one visit that she was going to be living with Janet that Isabella was set off in a very angry mood. She told me she didn’t want to live with Janet. Janet also lied to her, telling her that she was the real biological mom, even though the pictures show Lisa. And then, on the first overnight visit in years, Janet crawled in the bathtub with this little girl she barely knew. Lisa truly loves Izzy and knows the dangers of Janet’s lifestyle (mental illness, irresponsibility, pronography all over). Too many people like Melanie think they know everything but must realize they do not. She is only pushing her agenda, her lifestyle, and demeaning others. And as for Christians, we ought to obey God rather than men. THis is in the Bible and we are to live according to the word of God, not man (our laws in our country were based on the word of God.) I know nothing of Lisa’s whereabouts, she never spoke of her connections, nor her plans, so I believe a trail would be hard to follow. And remember, God hid Jesus in Egypt until Herod died, He can do the same for Isabella.

    • Julie

      January 3, 2010 at 2:54 am

      Hey Paula and Melanie – LOL! Don’t forget us LOGICAL and SANE straight people here! I just bought my husband a really nice color printer for Christmas… need some help with those posters??

      The real fact about this is NOT that it is Gay/straight issue. The argument truly is religious belief vs. Law. For some reason, plenty of people, including Lisa Miller, seem to think they are ABOVE THE LAW because of their religious beliefs. This is NOT TRUE. If it was true, anyone could do anything and get away with it as long as they say “Its part of my religion”.

      On the plus side… it is nice to see SOME “religious” people have understood God’s real message about loving their fellow man and women. I know PLENTY of people who are religious who just don’t care if someone is gay or not! They just love them and accept them the way they are! I just wish the rest of the religious population actually read the bible they keep thumping! Some day they might actually GET Jesus’s message!

    • Julie

      January 3, 2010 at 2:57 am

      And Melanie… t hanks for the welcome!
      I do have a question, if you don’t mind answering it though. I have a really good guy friend who is gay. He always calls me a Fag hag. I admit, I’m too embarrassed to actually ask what that means. Can you clue me in?

    • Melanie Nathan

      January 3, 2010 at 2:56 pm

      Its a sort of compliment. It means you hang out with gay men. It can also mean that you prefer to hang out with gay men. The word FAG is an insult to gay people but it can be said BY a gay person without impunity. Life self deprication jokes. check out urbandictionary.com diff meanings,

    • Julie

      January 3, 2010 at 10:29 pm

      LOL Melanie! I suppose that makes sense, since I’ve got a ton of family and friends who are gay. It fits me well I guess… LOL! Much to my husbands relief! I’m pretty sure he’s happier with my hanging with gay guys than with the straight ones! I’m happy to say my daughter is apparently growing up to be one too. She’s in Junior High School – at a Catholic school at that! Her best friend for the past few years has been the one guy in her grade who finally “came out”. My daughters reaction was to look at him and say “umm..yeah, I already knew that. Can you help me with this math problem?” I must be doing something right!

    • Melanie Nathan

      January 5, 2010 at 2:35 am

      Julie thats sweet

    • Julie

      January 3, 2010 at 2:26 am

      I get SO tired of having to explain the law to people who do NOT pay attention!

      Tammy – I will try again. Whether you like it or not, a child that is born into a legal union is considered the LEGAL child of both parents in the union. It doesn’t matter how the child came to be, through natural conception, artificial insemination, adoption or the woman screwing around with another guy. There is PLENTY of legal precedent for this. Lisa and Janet were in a legal union. Therefore they are the duel parents of the child. Janet Jenkins didn’t NEED to adopt her. Just like a man who is married to a woman who gets artificial insemination doesn’t need to adopt the child. Its his. Period. Case closed.

      As for “but Janet didn’t see the child” or any other argument, it doesn’t legally matter. Just ask a parent who has gone through a divorce and deals with custody issues!! I have seen plenty of men who wanted to just walk away and not pay child support…. it doesn’t work that way. Not to mention most of the crap you just said about how the child was treated has already been proven to be NOT TRUE. AS IN – LISA LIED. As for what may or may not have happened in the relationship… ever been to divorce court??? I can tell you first, most of THAT is lies as well and second, it doesn’t matter. Actually, Lisa even got child support. Lisa’s sob story had never held up when examined and she keeps changing her story. All of these “allegations” have been proven completely unfounded.

      As for the comparison with the Goldmans, it is EXACTLY true. Everyone is using the same arguments to support a Felon as Sean Goldman’s grandparents did. Neither hold up to law. Sorry. Fact is Fact.

      You state the Gods law should be above the countries law. Ok, so which “God’s” law are you talking about? Lets see, I suppose we COULD have you dress in a burka… you’d probably like it. Oh yes, you’d love the part not having any right as a female to walk out of your house with out a male, or the fact you can’t speak in public to anyone who is not related to you! How about the law that says you can’t drive, choose your own husband or allows you to be given away in marriage at age 8?

      Oh, or are you saying that if you follow YOUR religious “beliefs” the law should roll out the red carpet and bow down to you? I know LOTS of Satanists who would LOVE that!!! Did you know its part of THEIR religious beliefs to kill babies on their alters? Nice to know you support that idea. Or that certain groups of Mormons are perfectly OK with marrying their 12 year old daughters to some old man they have never met? Glad your ok with that one too.

      I know you hate it, but guess what? This country was founded on religious freedom. That means that one religion can not dictate “beliefs” to another one or over another one. Don’t like that? Rather follow “God’s” law… whatever your interpretation of that is… than the Constitution and the laws set down by it? Please go join your brothers and sisters of the Taliban in the middle east. While you live in this country, you have to follow our laws. Don’t like it? Please leave before we have to pay for you to be put in the prison system!

  21. Melanie Nathan

    January 2, 2010 at 5:03 am

    Note you can go on Lisa Miller’s facebook page and become a fan at the oush of a button and then find a way to comment by replying on anyone of the existing comments.

  22. Melanie Nathan

    January 2, 2010 at 5:02 am

    hypocrisy seems to be the belief du jour

  23. Julie

    January 2, 2010 at 4:05 am

    This is insane. I find it sick that the people who scream so damn hard about people violating their first amendment right to enforce their religion on everyone would go so far as to knowingly and openly assist in a crime against the same courts they hide behind! This poor child has become a pawn of the American Taliban! She needs to be rescued ASAP! Give the girl to the parent that actually CARES about her, Ms. Jenkins. Ms. Miller has proved time and again that not only does she not care about that child, but hates her as well. This child is in SERIOUS danger – a victim of KIDNAPPING. Lets get her back NOW!!!!!!

    • Scott Fillmer

      January 2, 2010 at 9:29 am

      You seem to be totally oblivious to the facts, and the fact is that Lisa Miller is the birth mother, she is the only biological parent? Since when does this country take away a child who has been living with the birth mother for as long as the child can probably remember and give the child to someone she doesn’t even know at this point? Your bias towards the gay issue has clouded your common sense judgement.

    • Sei

      January 2, 2010 at 9:54 am

      Sorry, your argument means that every non-biological father who is deemed to be a parent is ineligible to gain custody of the children of their marriage. Legally, Janet Jenkins is the parent of Isabella in the same manner that ever father of a child conceived using a sperm donor or mother who uses an egg donor is the parent of the child of that marriage.

    • Eric Smith

      January 2, 2010 at 11:11 am

      Sei,

      Not the same thing- same sex couples Never had the ability to produce children. Evolution is no friend to the gay. Lisa MIller is the only parent that Isabella has.

      And the only reason the LGBT community is pushing for this little girl to be placed with Jenkins is you guys can some how get over that deep sense of loathing that all gays have… towards themselves. Kidnapping this child away from her Only Real Mother, Lisa Miller, isn’t going to make any of you normal.

    • Sei

      January 2, 2010 at 11:33 am

      Mr. Smith,

      It is amazing how you wish to ignore the law. You talk about ‘never had the ability to produce children’, and yet many of those men who use sperm donors do not have, and likely never had, the ability to have children. It is the same thing. Incidentally, I do not have any “deep sense of loathing” about my sexuality. I know very few gays and lesbians who have a “deep sense of loathing” about their sexuality also. You might want to stop reading the literature that they feed people in those “Ex-gay” camps. The majority of gays and lesbians I know who have that “deep sense of loathing” regarding their sexuality have some sort of upbringing conflict with their sexuality. They’ve been told that they cannot be, oh, Christian and Gay/Lesbian and are taught to loathe themselves.

      The law, btw, is clear on this, and that is the other problem here. Janet Jenkins IS legally Isabella’s mother. Ignoring that law and supporting a criminal kidnapper is just loathsome. Of course, Christians like you believe that the law does not apply to them unless they are the “victim” here. If the roles were reversed and Jenkins was Isabella’s birth mother, wouldn’t you be busy demanding that Isabella be handed over to Lisa Miller? Unless your answer is “no”, then there really is nothing to discuss.

      I would like to point out that I am not taking sides in this. I am only reporting this and arguing in favor of Lisa Miller following the law. You can try to ascribe all kinds of motive to me, but I somehow doubt that any of your assertions will match the reality.

    • Holmes

      January 2, 2010 at 12:56 pm

      This is such a joke, This is what happenss when the state gets involves with the church. That ‘s what this is really all about. All the gays wants the same rights as the normal marrige. Eevn if it changes the entire fabric of life. So now that the laws have been change to give gays what they want, we have our courts backed log trying to make something work that is never going to be excepted by true Christains. I guess when this perverse lifestyle decided to go main stream. I bet they never considered the fact they two women nor two men can never produce a child out of what they claim to be normal. So now thwy are forced to go back to the thing they say there not just to try and become something they will never be. Can someone tell we what would make a woman that says she dosen’t want a man, go out and get another woman that’ trying to be a man. What this is, is a war between Right and wrong ( Christans and Nasty perverted Gays.) I’m so tired of people writing saying it’s the christains that are the problem, because all it is, is a way for the gays to blow smoke in hopes that the truth will go away. It is time for the real christains to band as one and open up their mouths and call this what it is. An ABOMINATION TO GOD> That why it will never work….

    • Sei

      January 2, 2010 at 1:11 pm

      No, Holmes, what happens when the state gets involved with the church is a situation like Spain under Franco, Argentina under Pinochet, Spain with the Inquisition, England with the execution of Catholics, France with the execution of Protestants, the Russians with their pogroms, the Saudis executing anyone who preaches anything other than Islam. I can go on. The barrier between Church and State exists not only to protect states from church influence, but to protect churches from being forced into supporting the state. Unfortunately for you, this means that you must follow the law even if it does not suit you. You can preach that homosexuality is wrong or that Blacks are evil and degenerate, or attack people for being Jewish, but you have to follow the law. You will find that many Christians support the LGBT Community irregardless of your delusions to the contrary. Of course, you will label them as being non-Christians or not true to Christ. The battle fields of two continents were watered with the blood of people who fought and died for that delusion.

    • Eric Smith

      January 2, 2010 at 1:13 pm

      Religion? Why do you folks keep trying to drag religion into this, anyway? Look at the facts:

      What about the fact Isabella Miller only has ONE known biological parent? Or that Lisa Miller was ALWAYS open to supervised visitation, even after several reportedly bad visitations by Jenkins? Or that Virginia has failed to enforce its own laws?

      This case is such a judicial disaster on so many levels, no wonder a lot of people are rallying to Miller’s defense.

    • Sei

      January 2, 2010 at 1:37 pm

      Really, Mr. Smith? You are the one who linked to a fundamentalist site, and you are the one who believes the word of a person giving an interview in which she praises God over and over again. Religion is already in this. The rest of this you cannot refute. Whether or not you agree with this, Janet Jenkins IS Isabella’s mother. Only you believe that people are rallying to her defense. Many women feel that Ms Miller should be locked up, even women who do not believe that homosexuality is normal. Even Christians who feel that homosexuality is wrong. Very few people are rallying behind this lawbreaker. Judge Cohen made his decision, and you believe the word of a criminal?

      But, of course, supporting a person who is breaking the law is just fine if you disagree with the law. Still, you did not really answer something in there, did you? If the situation was reversed, just how hard would you be screaming for Jenkins to give up Isabella?

      Oh, and you mentioned disastrous visits, was that before or after Lisa Miller did everything she could to poison Isabella’s attitudes regarding her mother?

      The second that the Civil Unions law went into effect, and the second that these two entered into it, any child of that union was the child of both mothers. That was the law, and Cohen upheld it. The law is also clear that Vermont’s law has jurisdiction in this case, not Virginia’s. This isn’t judicial activism no matter how much you want to whine about that one as well. This is a judge upholding the law.

    • Tom Farrell

      January 2, 2010 at 2:57 pm

      What about the fact that Isabella Miller has always had TWO known lawful parents? Or that Lisa Miller agreed to unsupervised visitation, and demanded child support money from Ms. Jenkins, thus acknowledging her parental status? Or that Virginia’s child welfare agency investigated Ms. Miller’s allegations of inappropriate behavior on the part of Ms. Jenkins and found them to be lies? Or that Virginia is obeying the full faith and credit clause of the United States Constitution – which is one of its own laws?

      WHY ARE YOU DEFENDING A KIDNAPPER?

    • Julie

      January 2, 2010 at 4:19 pm

      How about the fact that any child, no matter HOW they are conceived, is a LEGAL child of BOTH parents if born into a Marriage? Whether Miller is the only one biologically related to the child is trumped by LAW on this one.

      You are incorrect about Miller being open to visitation of any kind. READ THE STORY. She refused ALL visitation…. even AFTER the judge told her to knock it off.

      Bad visitations? Try again. There was ONE report…. which was proven unfounded.

      VIRGINIA has nothing to do with this. The case was started in Vermont, which had governing authority, even Virginia admits it. So what your saying is that a legal court order from another state is not valid? Oh yes, lets do this please. That means if you commit a crime in one state, all you have to do is move to another one so you won’t get arrested. I know lots of murderers, rapist and child molesters who would LOVE your interpretation of the law!

      Anyone supporting or hiding a kidnapped child is a FELON. PERIOD.

    • a. mcewen

      January 2, 2010 at 4:20 pm

      A lot of people aren’t necessarily flocking to Miller’s defense. True there are some who are buying her arguments but this flood of support you are alluding to doesn’t exist. Even Debbie Thurman, a blog advocate for Miller, is sliding herself out of this situation.

      And there is has been a strange degree of silence from the Liberty Counsel. I think a lot of folks are realizing that Miller went too far here.

    • Melanie Nathan

      January 2, 2010 at 10:39 pm

      Okay here is a doozy for you ERIC and might I say the proof of the pussing is in the eating: Here is an interview dated October 2008 which you can find on the internetLifeSiteNews: Question “Can you tell me a little bit about how you began in this relationship with Janet Jenkins?
      Lisa
      Miller: I had actually identified myself as a lesbian a couple of years before meeting Janet, and it was through a process – I was hospitalized 14 years ago for an alcohol addiction and it was when I was in the hospital the first time for that which was in February of 1994 that I had a failed marriage and I had also tried to commit suicide and that was how I got a trip to the hospital. I tried to commit suicide and I was in ICU actually for 5 days – it was a miracle that I was alive. I was in a regular med unit for 2 days and then in the state of Virginia you go to the psych ward if you try to take your life. It’s a state rule.

      So, it was when I was in the psych ward – you get put through evaluations, group therapy, individual therapy and it was through this process of them trying to figure out what was wrong with me that they said, “Well, we don’t really know but we really think that you are probably a lesbian and you are having problems with coming out issues.”

      They actually put that as my treatment plan and I had to meet with my family before they would release me from the hospital to explore this issue. So, that was the first time that I had really explored this issue. It was in the hospital, with my parents, my extended family and also my husband at the time, even though we were separated, and soon after that we parted ways and we got a divorce. So, back in 1994, was the first time that I really self-identified myself as a lesbian.

      LifeSiteNews: What led you to attempt suicide?

      Miller: What led me to that was – from the age of 7, my parents had divorced and I had started taking Speed. I didn’t know that that was what it was at the time because you could get it over the counter basically. Through a serious of addictions from the time I was 7, up until the time I met my husband, I had never had alcohol.

      When I met my husband, he introduced me to alcohol and mixing that with some pills that I was taking and I had food addictions – I guess, it really did depress me and, at that time, I just felt that nothing else was going to get better and I was having marital problems with my husband at the time and I just decided that I wanted to end my life… ”
      :
      Okay who may be the one not fit to take care of a child? Just like the judge said the parent that in her fervor failed to adhere to a child visitation order. I think we can see who the crazy one is – on Miller’s admission. No one in their right mond would run from the feds. So Eric you say why bring religion into and let me tell you the one who did – LISA Miller herlsef, because she is spinning the line that JESUS saved her from the carziness she is confessing to in the interview. Now I dont believe that if you clap your hands and say Hallelejuh that you can save yourslef from doing bad shit like this again. I think this interview shows that child to be at grave risk as long as Lisa is on the run from the law.

    • Melanie Nathan

      January 2, 2010 at 10:40 pm

      Okay notice how everything is evryone else’s fault? Never takes responsibility for her part in anything – the Psych ward made her gay – lol -

    • Julie

      January 2, 2010 at 4:12 pm

      You have NEVER read the first amendment have you???? It says the government can NOT force everyone to be of one religion, or to follow the rules of one religion over another. This IS what happens when states start dictating religious practices to people of a different religion! Anyone who was gay would have been given equal rights a long time ago… probably in the 20th amendment… if it hadn’t been for RELIGION DICTATING LAW. Now that we are trying to comply with the first amendment, all you Christians are having a fit because suddenly your religion isn’t the primary force behind the law.

      Get over it. Christianity is only ONE of thousands of religions in this county. Fanatic Christians are even a minority among Christians.

      As for abomination of God…. I think God would find YOU to be an abomination. You use his name to do Satan’s work. You have ignored his commandment to love your fellow man and women. You have completely IGNORED his first 10 commandments in order to focus on “sin” number 1456, that was only a SIN because some Catholic monk in the dark ages said it was. Personally, I think God isn’t nearly as petty as you seem to think. Honestly! I think god would find any relationship that contains love, honestly, kindness, compassion and caring to be wonderful compared to the hatred, murder and terrorism that is promoted in “his” name by so many people calling themselves “HIS” followers!

    • Melanie Nathan

      January 2, 2010 at 8:43 pm

      What people like this do not seem to know is their Bible, – there is absolutely no reference in the bible to lesbian relationship being wrong – and in fact any demand to produce children is ironically in this modern dat and age quite an easy accomplishment. Sometimes lesbians use sperm donated by gay male friends. You are so right – most these people who comment and turn this into hate are truly ignorant or if they are smart, they have an alternate agenda …. THanks again for your thoughtful and provocative participation. Melanie

    • Josh

      January 3, 2010 at 3:40 am

      I love the inadvertent typo by HOLMES who said “I’m so tired of people writing saying it’s the christains (sic) that are the problem….” Yes, these types of people that claim to be Christians really are christains and “Christans” (sic) are rather tiresome. Attempting to explain to someone what constitutes kidnapping, child endangerment or legal terms seems to be a futile exercise trying to reason with a group with-like Taliban thinking. God is “speaking” to them, very laughable (and dangerous) excuse.

    • Josh

      January 3, 2010 at 3:58 am

      Dear Melanie: Thank you so much for your efforts to publicize this criminal activity and your attempts to provide sound logical persuasive and thoughtful responses to the thumpers and bigots who have a hard time understanding LEGAL concepts. I read your comments on the Facebook pages for those supporting Lisa Miller and found them to be enlightening. The “religious” right-wing fringe faction in this country is a danger to our US Constitutional rights. Their fanatic beliefs have escalated to the level of supporting child abductors and using this despicable action of endangering a child to popularize their fascist views.

    • Melanie Nathan

      January 3, 2010 at 2:51 pm

      Yes Josh – you may wonder why I take the time – and some believe they should not engage these people because they will never change. The truth is I am not trying to change them or even have them see my point of view, what I am doing is baiting them to reveal their ignorance, inability to provide answers to their nonsensical lockstep ‘talking-pointesque’ statements – it weakens their arguments and standing and shows the educaoted and reasonable American what we are up against. But they will fade as the next wave of a generation precludes it.

    • Julie

      January 2, 2010 at 3:56 pm

      Excuse me, but I am not a member of the LGBT community. As I am an old, straight woman with a husband, children and woman do nothing for me, I don’t think I’m allowed to join. My judgement is not based so much on religion, but on THE LAW, something you have willfully forgotten. This child was KIDNAPPED alright, but by MS. MILLER. Just as Sean Goldman was KIDNAPPED to Brazil. So should we have let poor Sean stay in Brazil after he was KIDNAPPED by his NON CUSTODIAL parent, just because he lived there for 5 years and didn’t have the opportunity to know his father because the other parent interfered? I think not. Two wrongs do NOT make a right! This case is EXACTLY the same!

      Now let me explain, in little itty bitty words the law to you. Isabella was born into a legal union / marriage. You might not LIKE it, you might not AGREE with it, but it is the FACTS. ANY child, born into a marriage of any sort, is considered the child of that marriage. (Still following me or did I lose you already?) That means the child is the legal child of the TWO PEOPLE of that marriage. (I lost you, didn’t I?) It does not MATTER how that child “came to be” in that marriage… whether it was by natural conception, artificial insemination, adoption or that the woman was screwing around with someone else. (Plenty of court precedent for that argument!) Those two people are STILL the legal and REAL parents of that child. Should those parents divorce, they are STILL the legal and REAL parents of any child born into that marriage, even if that child is not “biologically” related to those parents. If that was NOT TRUE, than any woman who became pregnant by artificial insemination would be the sole parent of a child, even if she was married. (There are plenty of men who are sterile yet use artificial insemination to have a child with his wife. Those men are still considered the legal and REAL fathers of those children.)

      Therefore, Isabella is the LEGAL child of BOTH PARENTS. They are BOTH her REAL PARENTS. One parent does not have the right to ILLEGALLY ban the other parent from involvement with THEIR child.

      So sorry…. I know you hate the fact that RELIGION does NOT trump the law. I know you feel that it should… at least as long as it is YOUR religion! It doesn’t work that way. A Satanist who kidnaps and murders a child because it is “part of their religion” is still a kidnapper and murderer. The law STILL applies to them, even if that part of their religion is in conflict with the law. LAW TRUMPS ALL.

    • Melanie Nathan

      January 2, 2010 at 8:37 pm

      Julie, I really appreciate your visiting this site and of course all are most welcome. I also appreciate your common sense and the relevant example you have provided. Please feel free to visit any time. thanks, melanie

    • Melanie Nathan

      January 2, 2010 at 8:35 pm

      Eric Smith – My same-sex spouse and I have two children. One was through insemination and the oter we adopted from an Asian orphanage when she had been abandoned as a tiny baby. I think I am doing G-d’s work. You only have to llok at my success and my superbly well adjusted kids. I love myself, I love my family. I am proud of being gay because I know it was G-d’s choice for me and not my own. I do a great deal of community volunteer work and I know that my loving kindness and attitude to life has served to do precisely what G-d would have expected of me. Your comments are not only offensive on his site but indicate you need an education. I have no idea how old you are- nor does it matter – but if you would like a scholarship to improve your education, I believe I can get a bunch of us lesbians to raise some money for you.

    • Melanie Nathan

      January 2, 2010 at 1:47 pm

      Sei just noticed your response sim to mine after I had resoponded above and you are correct.

    • Melanie Nathan

      January 2, 2010 at 2:19 pm

      Yes Paula, correct and if these people refuse to adhere to the civil law of the land for the reasons they deem valid; in such an instance what they are really doing is justifying any parent, bio or adoptive, donor, whatever hiding the kid from any legal parent (e.g. Mother’s from Fathers) and then saying oops the kid does not know you. I know many parents would hide out for 5 years thinking they had taken custody law into their own lands. Such behavior by these people is horrendous because it lights the way for a socity that can never work. In fact it would land us back to allk taking the law into our own hands. I am sure that is precisely what the teaching of the Bible envisaged right? Right!

      In fact there is a case in CA Law where a hetero mother did the same thing to the father. The Judge took the kid away from the mother and sent the kid back to the father after not seeing the parent for years. Its the actions of the parents that cause sthe harm to the children. The law must protect the order in society – clearly the Church cannot do it.

    • Melanie Nathan

      January 2, 2010 at 1:42 pm

      Scott it has nothing to do with being the birth mother or not- it has to do with what the relationship produced and for that Ms. Miller cannot hide behind Jesus. If your argument worked it would mean bio parents could take back adopted children. Dont you get why we have laws. Your problem is you cannot get around the same-sex relationship that Miller pursued to birth their child,. The insemination was a decision they both participated in.

      There is another point – if your argument were to stand – then the effect would be that all married couples should have paternity tests because the only way kegally a father is a parent is because the rlationship confers a presumption of paternity. So its the relationship that dictates the parentage not the sperm.

  24. Melanie Nathan

    January 2, 2010 at 8:30 pm

    Yes, Priya Additionally she Thurman uses this defiance of the civil law and the resulting criminal act as an example of being a “true mother” This is not a mere statement it has serious implications for society as a whole because what it does is say Bible and belief (if its the Christian way) rules over law -

  25. Melanie Nathan

    January 3, 2010 at 2:39 pm

    Evan, Precisely the point of these two posts including the one I wrote as a plea to Lisa.

  26. Melanie Nathan

    January 3, 2010 at 2:44 pm

    Yes and its indicative of the fact that Christians of this type would rather not separate Church and State and would rather have Bible followed as law, than US family law codes – untl it comes to the part that requires stoning for adultery…… because so many actually do commitr adultery. As we all know. That said, these guys should stop hiding behind the skirt of Jesus everytime they want to committ a crime and it suits them.

  27. Zeke Krahlin

    February 18, 2010 at 2:52 am

    {{ Debbie Thurman missing blog page can be found here: }}

    Not any more.