The last report I had, which was in the news, was that the bill was to begin debate in December, and then it was pulled in order to be amended and reintroduced so that it now included “reparative therapy” and removed the part about executing people. That did not happen. The President of Uganda threatened to veto the bill as it stood because he knows that there is a lot at stake right now if it does pass. I know more about what is going on than you apparently do. Ah, well, I guess the Ugandan press- oh that’s right any press not favorable to the government is squashed in Uganda. You know, by the military? The press there is hardly free.

As for the “War on Terror”, I find it funny that you’re so sure that the EU won’t turn elsewhere. Uganda and Burundi were the only two nations to really give troops to the efforts in Somalia, and that did not exactly go well did it? Ethiopia pulled out and half the country collapsed into Sharia. What is more, those Islamists are busy attacking your troops.

Jeremy, you keep saying no one cares about us, and that your vast oil supplies and your help in the “War on Terror” shield you from responsibility for protecting your own people. Guess what, it doesn’t. Less than three thousand troops and a base isn’t a lot of help.

Oh yes, and despite what Richard Cohen and his “cuddle therapy” assertions might lead you to believe, homosexuality is not a disorder. A lot of scientific data has shown that reparative therapy doesn’t work, and there is a lot more scientific data showing that homosexuality is genetic and biological in origin. Of course, if you know as much about science as you do about history, I’m not surprised you don’t understand that bit either.

You protest too much, Jeremy. Usually that means that someone has secrets to hide. I wonder what yours would be, and I wonder just how things would go if we contacted the Ugandan government to pick you up as a gay man….really, it does make one wonder.

Beyond that, the attempts to prevent us from reporting on the truth and of getting people against Uganda’s bill aren’t really working. Or had you never figured out that all it is doing is making us more dedicated to making sure that international pressure is ramped up to the point where Uganda either fails to pass this law or collapses?

I keep telling you, I don’t care what Uganda does so long as it isn’t doing it with my money. You want to do what ever you want, fine. Give up the foreign aid money and revoke those contracts. I oppose the fact that American companies are running the Saudi oil fields. I think Saudis need jobs more than Americans do within Saudi Arabia, but you won’t listen to that either.

And how long will it be before that oil is fully explored and exported? A decade? A lot can happen in a decade.

We are going to keep the pressure on Uganda because … for all of your raging… it is working and Uganda will become a outlaw that will be too hard to do business with no… matter how much oil you have. Uganda is not Saudi

I think the hew and cry is having an effect and that you’re worried that you can’t get the Family’s point man in Uganda to back down and pull the bill despite political pressure and in the end, this could hurt Uganda, so you want us to shut up and we aren’t.

You’re frothing at this point, Jeremy. You’re not even as good at this as some of the other people we’ve had attacking this site.

The European Union has agreed to send a team to help train up to 2,000 Somali troops, who are battling a long-running insurgency by Islamist militants. Spain will lead a mission of about 200 EU troops in setting up a training camp in Uganda, EU foreign ministers said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8479564.stm

Your rants are totally the opposite of what you are saying….
Fact ,,,,, No one cares about you in practice…..Europeans may say a few things to impress gays but they are clever enough to know that they need Uganda

You are right, the Ethopia troops left, and half of Somalia fell to the Islamists in less than half a year since the Ugandan and Burundian troops (each nation provides around half of the five thousand troops there, incidentally) and the Somali government forces couldn’t prevent it from collapsing. Those troops are not there with the blessing of the US, but with the approval of the African Union.

And now you are talking about how Europe is engaging in dialogue. Well, I do not represent the government of any nation, Jeremy, but I know that legislators in many Western nations are gearing up legislation to pull aid money and punish Uganda if they go forward with this bill. Oh, they’ll talk first, but if it passes, do not be surprised if they act.

You really can’t read, can you? I said that the Allamond Empire- also known as the Fatamid Empire, conquered Libya, not the Byzantines. I said that this occurred back at a time when the Turks were under the control of the Byzantines.

Thing is, Jeremy, we don’t care what Saudi Arabia does because they do not have their hand out asking for foreign aid money. The EU and Congress are moving to end foreign aid money, and given that the troops in Somalia are not very effective, I don’t think that they’ll care if Uganda pulls out their soldiers. Somalia is still unstable, still falling to the Islamists- albeit more slowly- and still rife with piracy. Most people in the US and Europe don’t pay a lot of attention to Somalia because it isn’t as important as Yemen is right now.

You are really nuts..during the Byzantine Empire there was NO nation of Libya…Dude…you are really nuts.
Well about China’s situation, just know that you have a 13 trillion debt and China has a 12 trillion surplus. You can’t put your spin on this.
Your so called ” west” does business with Saudi Arabia ( A nation that hangs gays even without trial)
If you think they will do anything about about Uganda, you must be day dreaming.
British, Norwegian, and Italian companies ( supported by their governments) are busy begging to invest in our oil sector.
As of yesterday, they were meeting our president.
The so called EU and your noise making congress…can write as many letters of condemnations, protests, etc as they like….who cares?
By the way Uganda has 3000 troops in Somalia preventing an Al-Qaeda type government from emerging…withdraw your “Aid” and see the consequences

I believe that the African troops, mainly Ethiopian, are losing ground in Somalia. Or are reports of Islamists gaining ground over hyped? And, given the fact that much of Europe- i.e. The West- has more advanced LGBT rights than America, I would hardly start saying that this is an America thing.

Where will that oil be transported? Through Kenya and Tanzania, as Paula mentioned, and then out into pirate infested waters? Right now, our Congress is already moving to end foreign aid to Uganda. Sweden is doing that right now too. More European countries are considering it. Oh, they might not slap sanctions on Uganda, but they don’t have to, do they? The governments probably won’t even bother with sanctions. They’ll just tell these corporations to call off the deals and put an end to the whole thing or risk problems at home. They’ll do that because they know that they’d be facing their own uproar at home over this.

The difference between Saudi Arabia and Uganda, Jeremy, is that Saudi Arabia has enough wealth to stand on its own and doesn’t need other nations to pipe oil to port or the international community to protect their ships.

You think I’m talking about the Turks and the Spaniards?! You think I am talking about 1510?! Please, try thinking a hell of a lot further back than that. Oh yes, and Archbishop Desmond Tutu supports rights for gays and lesbians. And you might want to do a lot more reading up on China’s economic situation, the move within the US Congress and the EU Parliament to end foreign aid to Uganda over this. You might also want to consider that the bulk of the EU already supports our rights. Spain, Portugal, Denmark, Netherlands…all of those are part of the West, and are European countries. Try learning a bit more about the current state of LGBT politics before you rant.

The people I’m talking about conquering Libya did so when the Turks were still under the occupation of the Byzantine Empire!

http://www.mcguirk.eu/?p=685

You also need to remember… Uganda is landlocked… and Tanzania and Kenya may not be as anxious to thumb their noses at that Western aid….

As if that is not enough yesterday news ….Italian oil group ENI plans to invest 13 billion dollars (9.2 billion euros) to develop hydrocarbons in Uganda http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hY1chao7nxLStZ6grHf0IiEeuaUw

Do you know that China will be the largest investor in Uganda and Africa by the end of this year ???
Keep your delusional thinking that the “west” is still important.
You need to keep those handouts for yourself since 1 in 8 Americans depend on food stamps.

By the way you keep saying ” the west” may be you mean America. Because most western countries don’t even care about sodomites.

If you truly believed that, then you should take every single copy of Richard Cohen’s and Rick Warren’s books and bury them in the midden. They are the ones who exported your little issue, not us.

Of course, go ahead and pass this law, and then enjoy having no foreign aid money coming from the US and Europe. Then watch as your nation is foreclosed on.

I find it rather funny that you call us KKK activists, have you ever actually found out what the KKK stands for? Jeremy, I know more about world history than you apparently do. I also know the nuances of it. All you do is come in here and push your old lies. You should also try researching your stance on homosexuality before you talk about acceptance. I would like to point out that Uganda is likely to lose a lot of money it needs in order to survive if this bill goes through. Those nations you keep talking about rejecting “homosexual imperialism” are the ones who are not funding your nation.

There is one thing I agree with- the future of Uganda belongs with Ugandans. Give up all aid money, give up all trade, and we’ll shut up and you can do what ever you want. So long as you are reliant upon Western aid to prop up your nation, you really should not be surprised if we speak out.

I realized- you mean EUROPEAN colonization…because, apparently, conquest into an empire isn’t colonization, or are the spread of ideas considered to be colonialism despite the fact that many historians view them as such, especially when they are spread deliberately due to pressure from without in order to keep one’s nation independent. You’re thinking unnuanced colonialism, not the nuanced stuff that I deal with every day.

And Uganda… and it governments… have a history of not wanting to solve any problems that country faces… and it blames those problems on someone else and then discriminates against them…

this is an issue of you and yours trying to do to gays what you got away with when you did it to the Indians… and you’re pissed because we gays are not going to let it happen this time.

Interesting, however, that is not entirely accurate. After all, this legislation did not come into being after the outcry against killing gays began, but before it. In point of fact, until this legislation came into being, no one paid any real attention to Uganda and their laws regarding gays and lesbians other than a few people. It certainly didn’t come about because of some massive push to change your laws by the LGBT activists of the world. Your argument puts the cart before the horse. You want to blame us for pushing Uganda to scrap a bill that you are claiming was created because of pressure to scrap that very same bill.

Nope, this is because of a small group of people like Richard Cohen who went to Uganda to proselytize their twisted version of Christianity and not some attempt to force Uganda to not execute gays. The reaction from the world wide LGBT Community did not come about before this bill was introduce, but after it. Before that, most of us didn’t care.

Again Sei you are just so wrong on the facts.
Ethiopia and Libya were never colonized by anyone…..Who colonized them?
You need an introductory course in world history/ affairs before you start posting stuff here.
If gays are so accepted as you state, then good luck with that thinking.
You can keep ranting here . Just remember that like all evils, homosexual imperialism will be defeated.
The future of Uganda lies with Ugandans not a bunch of unrepentant KKK activists.

Thanks for turning to real issue.
Most Ugandans are against killing gay people or killing their own brothers and sisters.
What is turning off people here in Uganda is an attempt by international gay activists to refuse people to discuss this issue.
For a country that became independent just 40 years ago, after so many years of colonial apartheid, foreign interference is a very sensitive issue.
Actually its sad that this issue has turned from gay issues to Ugandans/Africans versus International Gay activists.

And many of us who you are busy berating on this site have voiced our opposition to those policies, to the use of drones, and to those idiots who attack Obama for his race. We are also aware that the majority of the civilian deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan have not been ordered by the American military, but by Taliban and Al-Qaida forces who indiscriminately set off massive bombs in the middle of crowded markets in order to kill as many civilians as possible. The Taliban and Al-Qaida are waging a dual war on both the United States and Moderate Islam.

And, Paula is right, we are trying to change the way our nation is. It is a slow process, but we are making progress. From the sounds of it, though, Uganda isn’t. Between people killing children in order to gain prosperity from the Spirits to killing gays because blaming them for the problems of society is easier than dealing with the problems of your country, I would say that at least working on the problems of our culture is a step forward.

My arguments are hardly all over the place, they get at the core of your argument. Japanese languages are of importance to this conversation because- WOW- they provide a parallel example to what you’ve been trying to state and disprove what you’re trying to state. Ethiopia and Libya were colonized- just not by the West. Your arguments are rooted in the “everyone else is doing it so it’s alright” stupidity. Well, at one point, everyone said it was alright for the West to conquer Africa. Everyone tends to be defined at the time by whomever feels that they are in power. The old counter to this argument is “if everyone was jumping off a cliff, would you jump too?” Incidentally, at one time in English, the word ‘bent’ was considered a pejorative. The connotations of words change over time. There are hundreds of words which, even a generation ago, were considered to be bad words and don’t even cause people to blink. The word ‘rogue’, for instance, was considered to be absolutely dreadful, and enough to bring people to words if not blows. Today, you have politicians picking up that word as if it is a wonderful mantle to wear.

As for all cultures reject homosexuality, that is somewhat erroneous. For instance, Japanese culture has never moved to make homosexuality illegal. While that culture has issues with the notion of same-sex marriage, that is deeply rooted in a culture where people were expected to get married and have children. If they later had lovers, it was not considered a problem. Today, there are a number of gay and lesbian individuals who get married, have children, then divorce and live with their same-sex partner. Because Japanese culture is not like Western and their social services are set up a lot better than, say, America, the need to be married to the person you live with is a little less problematic. However, there is a move in Japan towards altering marriage rights.

It is also interesting how you say that we are rejected by all religions. Not all Christian sects feel that homosexuality is a vice or immoral. You might want to consider that while you’re babbling on. Most Pagan sects also do not feel that homosexuality is wrong, as do certain forms of Buddhism, Shintoism, and Taoism.

Jeremy, you continue to push this idea that something is wrong without grounding your statements in anything in particular. You try to universalize your twisted beliefs as if, somehow, everyone else believes like you do and we’re here to corrupt you. Of course, it also shows you do not have an argument that will work. What is more, a minute’s worth of research will show you that seven is the number that allow same-sex marriages in all jurisdictions, but a total of thirty six allow civil unions or same-sex marriages. When you add in the United States and Mexico into the mix, that raises the number to thirty-eight, but those are in some jurisdictions. When you add in that Ireland is taking this under consideration right now, that brings it to thirty-nine. I can keep going. It is being debated in a number of nations.

I would recommend that you stop at this point as well. You keep trying to make the same weak assertions regarding this issue and make it sound like everyone is on your side. Yet, people are turning against you. It may be slow, but it is happening.

but since you are coming here saying you should be allowed to kill people because your religion says it is ok… it doesn’t appear so.

Excuse me….. Just to remind you, if you have forgotten…Guatanamo is still open…torturing people, denying people a fair trial and Abu Ghrab water-boarding …. Your drones are killing babies and women as I type this…and on a daily basis.
Over 1 million civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan have been murdered and continue to be killed under your illegal occupation.
And I clearly remember during your last campaign those white men calling Obama a Monkey…If this isn’t barbarism then the term has no meaning. Shame on you !!!!!
You are just a bunch of KKK racist activits
Your definition of civilization is suspect

Actually am becoming convinced that homos can cured by mental rehabilitation.
Your arguments are all over the place…, Africa languages have nothing to do with Japanese and Chinese…..You are really desperate to divert from the issue at hand.
In all African languages( more than 1000 of them) the word homosexual means something
inhuman or a sinful act.
This resounding rejection has no connection with your spin on Christianity or Islam or American Christians or some foreigner. Even in Ethiopia and Libya (which were never colonized)
Have you heard about gays who were recently lynched in Nigeria? Does this have anything to do with American Christians ? or the Sodomites in Malawi facing trial now….were they also influenced by some right wing conspiracy? or those executed in Egypt ?
The fact is …You are social misfits rejected all over the world by all religions and all modern cultures.
That is why state after state gays have been rejected in a vote.
In all the 203 countries in the world and territories, only 7 give you some form of recognition.
This is a total rejection against this vice.

No, it is your desperation not mine. To be honest, you’re a bore. The fact that it takes me a minute and a half of looking things up in an encyclopedia to disprove your points simply proves that you don’t have a point. Homosexuality in Japan is called doseiaisha, incidentally. It is called a translation. Simply because a language has a word that means something does not prove that it is a concept originating in a language. From my research, the term doseiaisha has existed in Japanese for only about the last half century. By all that is Holy, Jeremy, that is a desperate and stupid ploy. English is a language that is cobbled together from two main branches (German and French), and a dozen smaller languages (from Spanish to Chinese). English uses the word coyote, which is not native to the language. English also uses the phrase automobile. Because the language has a word for automobile does not mean that automobiles have existed throughout the length and breadth of the English language. Words from hamburger to ketchup are all loan words. English also makes up its own words too. The term homosexual is not that old, incidentally, and is partially based upon Greek.

Incidentally, you mean that African languages were not created by Christians or Muslims, not written. Most African languages did not have their own written alphabet (another great Greek mash up word) until the arrival of the Latin or Arabic scripts. Those that do typically existed in the Sahara and include kingdoms such as Egypt which used hieratic and demotic for every day writing.

You keep coming back to the argument that even our military is against homosexuality, and yet that is a law put in place over a decade ago that even most in the military want abolished. Currently, support for the repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell is almost seventy-five percent in this country. Your argument is based on nothing.

You actually said that the criminalization of homosexuality came into Africa via Islamic traders and that words concerning sodomy originate with them. Though the words are local, the concept is not. NOW, you are trying to back track and make it sound as if because of a local word meaning a concept from outside that language it indicates that your argument is based in African culture.

Jeremy, the man who introduced this law is beholden to an American Christian group which is attempting to spread their beliefs in Christianity and their beliefs in what American culture should be to other nations. He is part of the Fundamentalist American Christian group called the Family. He is beholden to people who want to turn your nation into an American Imperialistic possession. Maybe you should consider where your marching orders are coming from first.

Your arguments are a desperate repetition of the same statements over and over again without any variation. I’m sorry, but you cannot even keep your story straight from one post to the next. Your arguments are so easily countered it is all but laughable. I’m sorry, Jeremy, but really, is this the best you can do?

I can understand your desperate attempt to make a connection between anti-homosexuality and Christianity in Africa. I think you are trying so hard to internationalize your liberal and conservative battles in the US.
Do you know how homosexuality is called in African languages? In my native language -Luganda… its called okulya ebisiyaga ( the closest translation is Sodomy)..You can do research and find out how its called in other languages.
African languages were not written by Christians or Muslims or Rick Warren or the American Right wing.
Your so called aid money to Africa is fighting your “global war on terror” after all we ordinary Ugandans never see it. We dont need money from filthy, dirty and sodomizing people. Take your money and go away. After all China is lurking somewhere with keen interest.
Lastly, most people in the West are against Sodomy thats why you governments dare not withdraw any so called “aid” to Uganda. Thats why you social misfits are rejected by your own military.

As for Paula Brooks remember your country was built on slave labor labor and committing genocide against native Indians. You have no moral authority to lecture anyone about Human rights. Thats why your country is bombing villages, killing babies and women under the guise of “war on terror”.
I wont even talk about Guatanamo and Abu Ghrab

As a result of Indophobic “Africanization in Commerce and Industry” proposals, Uganda’s Asians were given 90 days to leave the country in 1972 and resulted in a significant decline in Uganda’s Asian Hindu and Muslim population.

The order for expulsion was based on the then Indophobic social climate of Uganda. The Ugandan government claimed that the Indians were hoarding wealth and goods to the detriment of indigenous Africans, “sabotaging” the Ugandan economy.

The favored catch phrases in that chapter of Ugandan history were that Indians were “greedy, conniving”, without any racial identity or loyalty and were “always cheating, conspiring and plotting” to subvert Uganda.

Arabs are Middle Eastern in origin. You might want to consider the fact that you are still talking about a religious practice from outside of Africa- namely Islam this time. You are still talking about a form of colonialism which, incidentally, in this case would be the Caliphates of Islam. I am sorry, but you still lose on that point. Nothing that you are proposing has its origins in anything truly African. It is either Christian or Islamic colonialism.

Incidentally, since LGBT activism is only around fifty years old, somehow I doubt that you can celebrate a national holiday dating back to 1888. I suspect that you are talking about an anti-colonial uprising that lead to the deaths of twenty-two people. What it sounds like you are trying to combine anti-colonial sentiment with a strong opposition to homosexuality. The problem for you lies in the fact that anti-homosexual ideas belong to people other than the African tribes. Be that opposition Islamic or Christian in nature, it derives from outside Uganda and outside Africa. Basically, you want to state that Western society is demanding that you legalize homosexuality and thus it is wrong because it is coming from the old Western colonial powers while at the same time ignoring that Christianity and Islam are both non-African in origin. What is worse, Christianity is Western in its origins into Africa, and Islam is spread from beyond the Suez Canal (present day). Basically, my point is quite valid, you want to cling to colonialism while at the same time rejecting colonialism. You want to cling to Christianity and American views on that subject while at the same time rejecting those who want to ensure that people are not executed for being a particular minority because it comes from the West.

You are talking about having a double standard. Either reject all non-African beliefs, including Christianity and Islam, or do not rail against those who are pushing your nation to not execute people who you are making a scape goat because you believe that they are the origin of your problems. What is more, give up every last dime of Western money given to your nation- including all trade contracts. Isolate your nation if you do not want Western or even World responses to your decision to execute people for being a minority because you cling to your very Western faith, and your very Western perversion of that faith.

I went back and verified that you are discussing the battles between the local population of the Kingdom of Uganda, the various Christians in the area, and the Imperial British East Africa Company that began in 1888 and ended in the early 1890’s. Once the IBEAC collapsed, Uganda was put under the direct control of the British Crown through the Colonial Offices. Basically, you are trying to both embrace and reject Colonial attitudes. You do not want people to say that you shouldn’t execute people while at the same time embracing a rationale to execute people that derives within a segment of the American (and Western) evangelical traditions. Sorry, bub, you can’t have it both ways.

This statement doesn’t make sense
“The notion that sodomy bans in Africa predate the European Colonialism is rather stretched”

Let me educate you about Africa since you are trying to justify your gay culture which is opposed by 98% of Ugandans…by both Christians and non-Christians.
We Africans see homosexuality as being both un-African and un-Christian, a double whammy in a place where both local tradition and the religious influence missionaries intersect.
Among the Bantu groups in Africa (my ethnic group) and the Nilotics, and the Baganda (in Uganda) homosexuality begun with the advent of Arab traders and the act was henceforth referred to as ‘okulya ebisiyagi’ (in Luganda) which means Sodomy. In fact, this was the catalyst for the initial massacre of the Uganda Martyrs (22 people) who opposed its introduction around 1880.
Uganda celebrates June 3rd every year as a national holiday for its resistance against gay culture.
This resistance continues up to today.
And by the way, precolonial African societies did not have prisons. The reason is to be found in the nature of their legal systems which mainly aimed at reconciliation. However, several lynching of homosexuals is reported to have occurred. To prevent these lynchings, the British introduced in Uganda ..1950 a life sentence for “crimes against nature” which included homosexuality.
No one has ever been charged for this Vice in Uganda, however, recently the public has become more agitated because of international homos are trying to push this vice under our throats..hence the anti-gay bill.

He speaks the language of hate, lies, disinformation and bigotry

The notion that I insulted you because I somehow don’t know about…oh, the cultures that preceded the arrival of the Europeans is rather trumped up. The notion that sodomy bans in Africa predate the European Colonialism is rather stretched. You do not want to debate with me because you do not want to listen to someone who might actually know more about Africa than you want them to. I am more than aware of the cultures that predated European conquest, including quite a lot about the !Kung of the Kalahari. While I admit that much of my knowledge regarding Africa has more to do with Saharan Africa rather than Sub-Saharan Africa, I do know quite a bit about the Igbo, Zulu, and several of the tribal cultures which predated Europe, especially towards the southern portion of the African continent. Jeremy, the culture of Christianity that you are pushing is not African. It is based on European colonialism, and has its origins in the Middle East. Christianity did not spread much further south than Ethiopia, and certainly did not make itself known in a major way as far south as Uganda.

I am Paula Brooks of Washington DC. I have always been Paula Brooks of Washington DC. And since I am a truthful and honest person, I will always be Paula Brooks of Washington DC, because that is how truthful and honest people behave.

You are not a Ugandan… you are some lying, deluded bigot who lives in Virginia… one who lies about your name and your country of origin, tells half truths and tries to sell bigoted distortions about gays… and you do this because you are not a truthful and honest person… You do this because you are a bigot and this is how bigots behave.

Now if the are gays hiding in fear of their live in Uganda… it is not because of anything we or any other gay has said or done… it is because many Ugandans have listened to your lies, half truths and bigoted distortions about gays and bought your Bullshit

If you produce your own foods, then by all means eat it. My only complaint is this- you take Western aid money for your nation. Stop accepting our money and I wouldn’t care a fig what you do to your own country. I don’t mean in 2013 or when ever you can get to the oil, I mean today. Of course, how much of that planning to get to the oil began when oil was sky rocketing towards $500 a barrel. Today, those oil fields may not even pay for themselves.

And, for a nation that has a huge problem with child sacrifice, I’d think that you are having a bigger problem than you want to admit to.

Oh, and Spartan, I’d recommend that, before you take on that moniker, you may want to brush up on homosexuality in Ancient Greece, especially among their warriors.

You are the one who came in here and began spouting vile homophobic insults at us. Your rather conciliatory comment here amounts to “the pot calling the kettle black”. And given your inability to grasp the history of the African Continent and your decision to ignore most of us who replied to you without any insults just shows you are not serious about a dialogue.

well I see that if this nonsense continues…. that loan he needs from the Royal Bank of Scotland to build the pipeline so he can sell it… could be in serious trouble… seeing as RBS is now essentially owned by the UK government.